Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 215

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    It is quite an intricate allegation, and, witness,
 1extermination of the Jews?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I certainly agree with that.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you put a rough date on when these broadcasts began?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sometime in 1942.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Sometime in 1942?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     As I recall.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read the memoirs -- do you know who Thomas Mann
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he a famous German novelist?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Author of I think "Wooden Brooks" and various other ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- famous novels? Where was he during World War II?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was in the United States.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the United States. Was he engaged by the Allies as a
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That, I am not sure about, but he certainly did make
19broadcasts, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read his memoirs and his own diary?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I put to you either now or later passages from the
23Thomas Mann diary of 1941 in which he describes making
24broadcasts relating to -- here we are ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In a way, Mr Irving, you have got your answer
26because Professor Evans has agreed that there were

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 1propaganda broadcasts from 1942 about the extermination of
 2the Jews.
 3 MR IRVING:     I was going to bring you back to 1941. It may seem
 4completely immaterial, my Lord, but -- in January 1942
 5Thomas Mann broadcast the following words in German:
 6"[German - document not provided] "400 Young Dutch Jews
 7have been brought to Germany to be used as experimental
 8objects for poison gas in January 1942". Can you accept
 9that if he writes that in his diary as a propaganda
10broadcast that he made that there was such a broadcast?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, could I see a copy, please?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we need to take terribly long? This is
13actually 1942, not 1941, but you have got your answer that
14there was propaganda use being made of the alleged
15extermination of Jews.
16 MR IRVING:     Right.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     From, at any rate, 1942.
18 MR IRVING:     Buttressed with three more sources but we will not
19go into detail, my Lord. Have you heard of the
20Ringlebloom diary.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that Ringlebloom makes reference in June
231942 in the ghetto to receiving broadcasts about the
24extermination of Jews with poison gas?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I will accept that.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you have read my Goebbels biography, as no doubt you

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 1have for the purposes of this case, will you agree that
 2the German Propaganda Ministry monitored a wave of
 3propaganda broadcast in November 1942 referring to the
 4gassing, mass gassing, of Germans?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, they were Nazi monitoring reports of the
 7BBC. You yourself, Professor, are an expert because you
 8have written a box on the subject, have you not, of German
 9wartime morale, of the reports? I think you wrote a book,
10did you not, on the subject of reports on public opinion,
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, no. I think the book you are thinking of covered the
13years 1892 to 1914.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this is the wrong war? In other words ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not even the war at all. It is before the First
16World War, I am afraid.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you are not familiar with the SD reports or with the
18letter intercept reports or anything like that on German
19public knowledge?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Slightly familiar, but I would not say that I was a major
21expert on them. I mean, I know what the SD reports were.
22I have read a few of them, but I am in no sense a real
23expert on them.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, you are absolutely right. I am wrong. Your book
25was [German] was it not? So you have not read any of the
26corresponding reports on German public morale, public

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 1opinion, that were gathered by the Gestapo or by the
 2Propaganda Ministry in the war years?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Only those which were cited in publication of other
 4scholars and one or two in the original, but I have not
 5read them thoroughly.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     How much talk was there in Germany during the war years of
 7gas chambers, do you think, in public or in private?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is very difficult to say. We have to
 9remember that there was a great deal of secrecy
10surrounding them. I think there was a fair amount of talk
11about shootings behind the Eastern Front, but of course it
12was against the law, and punished severely, if you spread
13news about what was going on in concentration camps or
14extermination camps in Germany.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Given that the BBC made -- I am going to keep this
16brief -- repeated broadcasts during 1942 about the Nazi
17atrocities, and about the extermination of Jews, and about
18gas chambers, even before the gas chambers began operating
19on a large scale ----
20 MR RAMPTON:     Wait a minute. If Professor Evans is to deal with
21that, Mr Irving must give some precise dates. One
22remembers evidence is that the evidence is that Chelmno
23started killing people in gas trucks 8th December 1941,
24and that the three Reinhardt camps were in full operation
25during the summer 1942. I think we need some dates.
26 MR IRVING:     With respect, Mr Rampton, I think, in view of the

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 1fact that Professor Evans has stated himself that he is
 2not an expert on this matter ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, Mr Irving, that will not do, will it?
 4You cannot put a question which has as its premise a
 5misstatement about the date when gas chambers began
 6operating. That is the point that Mr Rampton is
 7making. It does not impinge on that objection that
 8Professor Evans may not himself be an expert. If you are
 9going to ask that question, and it is a relevant question,
10you must premise it correctly.
11 MR IRVING:     I was really trying to save the court time.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That will not do either, Mr Irving, if I may
13say so.
14 MR IRVING:     It will certainly take time for me to look up the
15actual dates and references and I do not want to take up
16the court's time shuffling papers.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I reformulate it for you and try and
18help? Or would you rather do it yourself? Do it
20 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship is much better reformulating
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I think I must not interfere too much.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can I say that what is at issue here are Mr Irving's
24statements that "the British Intelligence Service
25suggested a propaganda campaign against Germany on the
26basis of invented allegations of gas chambers", or another

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invented." That is really what is at issue.
 1 MR RAMPTON:     The Professor must be allowed to read the
 2preceding two paragraphs that he himself has set out in
 3his report because that is to rip something right out of
 5 MR IRVING:     I thought it would be helpful to go forward to 1943
 6to see what we did not know.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us see what the context is for what
 8Cavendish-Bentinck said.
 9 MR IRVING:     As regards putting Poles to death in gas chambers,
10that is pretty plain, is it not here? Here is the Foreign
11Office saying we have no evidence for this, and yet back
12in 1942 they are making the propaganda broadcasts.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am just trying to read it. Can
14you just pause for a second (Pause for reading). I am
15bound to say that I do think that, in fairness to
16Mr Irving, one of the things about which
17Cavendish-Bentinck is saying that there is no evidence
18available to the British at that stage is the putting to
19death of Poles in gas chambers.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Polish children, and the underline is in the
21original. It is not Professor Evans.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I agree what is being talked of is killing
23Polish children, or selling them. But also, as a separate
24topic, it seems to me a fair reading of this suggests, the
25putting of Poles to death in gas chambers.
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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