Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 215

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    I do not think anybody has said that it was unimportant.
 1It is a question of the level and degree of importance you
 2attach to it.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that there is no reference to the word
 4"liquidation" in the records or to any order by Hitler or
 5to any systematic killing in the Wannsee Conference?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is true.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Middle of page 138, please. You say that I relied on
 8Eichmann's testimony on other occasions but not when it
 9does not suit me. This is another allegation of
10manipulation, right?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you tell me what other occasions I did rely on
13Eichmann's testimony? Are you just referring to the
14episode where he looks through the peep hole in the back
15of the van and saw the gas vans operating?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is one of them, yes. There are others,
17I think, which I mentioned in the report.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I relied on it when it suited me -- why would it suit me
19to use Eichmann's confirmation of something which I, as a
20denier, am supposed to be denying?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, this comes back to the point that we talked about
22yesterday, that I made it clear that Holocaust deniers as
23a group have, on the whole, always admitted, as Faurisson
24said, there were some small scale, relatively small scale,
25killings on the Eastern Front of Jews, and that belongs to
26that.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever read very much of Eichmann's testimony
 2either in his memoirs or in the subsequent trial in
 3Israel?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have read some, not the whole thing.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the passage where Eichmann,
 6challenged about a particular episode, interrupted the
 7interrogator two minutes later and said words to this
 8effect: "I am sorry. You asked me two minutes ago about
 9that episode, and I have to say now I cannot remember
10whether I am actually remembering it or just remembering
11being asked a question about it more recently"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you would have to show me that document.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that sometimes this happens in
14interrogations, that the interrogator puts questions with
15such force that sometimes the person being interrogated
16comes to believe what is being suggested to him by the
17questions?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, that is a very general statement, Mr Irving, and
19I suppose in some integrations somewhere or other that
20kind of thing takes place.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Going on to page 139, the Commissart Order, and the
22guidelines for jurisdiction issued to the German Army and
23armed forces in the spring of 1941. I am not asking you
24in detail about them, but would you agree that these are
25documents of a military nature?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, I cannot see this.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     139, paragraph 11. We are dealing here with the orders to
 2kill Jews, Red Army Commissarts and others in the German
 3Army area?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Oh, yes, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this is a reference to the Commissart order, is it not?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     All I am trying to get from you is a concession that the
 8Commissart order issued by the German High Command of the
 9armed forces was a military document concerned with
10military measures and that it did not convey a clear and
11overriding intent to kill the Jews as such?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is, no, it is an order that Red Army Commissarts will
13be killed. There were orders issued to that effect in
14its -- I mean, it is very hard to describe that as a
15military order in the sense that it did not seem to me, or
16to most historians, there to be any military justification
17for it. It is a political act.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     The simple question there is were they being killed as
19Commissarts or as Jews?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     As Commissarts. The Jews are a separate matter in these
21orders.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     And do you accept that at this time the Soviet Union was
23not a signatory of the Geneva Convention on
24prisoners-of-war and, therefore, the Germans had no
25obligation whatsoever to treat their prisoners properly?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is a rather different matter, Mr Irving, and actually

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 1issuing an order to the Army to kill Red Army Commissarts
 2is a very different matter from simply not treating people
 3properly.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, you accept that when nations become belligerent,
 5they have a choice that they can make, they can agree both
 6sides, they can become signatories and parties of a
 7convention like the Geneva Convention on treatments of
 8prisoners-of-war, and the Soviet Union had specifically
 9opted out of it and, therefore, at no time opted into it,
10so the Soviet Union, legally speaking, Soviet prisoners
11could not expect to be treated as prisoners-of-war and, in
12fact, nor could German prisoners be expected to be treated
13as prisoners-of-war?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, if you are advancing that argument as an excuse or
15justification for the order to the Germany Army to kill
16all the Red Army Commissarts found and for the deliberate
17killing of between 3 and 4 million Soviet prisoners-of-war
18by the Germans, then I do not think it is a very strong
19justification or excuse.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you hear me express it in those terms as an excuse?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That seemed to me what you were saying.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was I not, in fact, just taking up the point you made
23before I mentioned the Geneva Conventions in which you
24referred to the illegal killing of these Commissarts?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You have lost me, I am afraid.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     In paragraph 12 you refer to Holocaust denier, Paul

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 1Rassinier, and on the following page, the first line of
 2page of 140, you refer to Austin App?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why do you refer to these people? Is it not totally
 5irrelevant to bring in all these names of people?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I am suggesting here that these are familiar -- the
 7arguments you are putting forward are familiar arguments
 8from well-known Holocaust deniers, advanced by many other
 9Holocaust deniers.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Unless his Lordship disagrees, what possible relevance
11does that have to this case that other writers have
12strange views?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Very, very marginal, in my view, so we can
14move on.
15 MR IRVING:     In other words, I need not prepare to address it?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, you do not.
17 MR IRVING:     We do, however, on this point come to the important
18matter of the allegation by me that the Holocaust story in
19part is an echo of our own propaganda. My Lord, I do
20think we have dealt with this allegation before, have we,
21in this court?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No.
23 MR IRVING:     It is quite an intricate allegation, and, witness,
24you disagree with this. Can we take it in stages? Do you
25agree that the Allies at any time started making
26propaganda broadcasts to Germany with references to the

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