Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 215

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you cannot ask him questions to which
 2he obviously cannot possibly know the answer.
 3 MR IRVING:     My Lord, he can because the reference to this
 4particular report is in my diaries which he has just
 5quoted from and it makes quite plain that the Verul(?)
 6Report was submitted to me. It was put to me by the
 7Defence counsel to read in order that I could answer
 8questions on it when I came into the box.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, what is the answer?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not sure what the question was, my Lord.
11 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with, have you read my diary and
12do you accept that, in fact, the Verul report was put to
13me purely for that purpose?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what your diary says. I am familiar with the
15diary entry. The fact is that you read the report and you
16judged it 90 per cent correct. Similarly, you are
17familiar with the work of another Holocaust denier,
18Dr Wilhelm Steglisch which you have commented on on a
19number of occasions.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Notwithstanding your desire to move on to other matters,
21can we deal with one thing at a time and say that a number
22of documents have been put to you by me in the last few
23days, is that is right?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you find it repugnant if people said you have
26relied on these documents that I have put to you and that

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 1you have read these Irving documents and that,
 2therefore ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, please, come on. It is just
 4becoming unhelpful and argumentative. Let us get on to
 5what matters. I say that for, I should think, the 12th
 7 MR IRVING:     132, Professor, page 132, line 4. I am afraid
 8I have to demolish this witness in detail, my Lord. It is
 9the only way I can do it.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am sorry, I am intervening more
11than I want to, but I have told you before that on
12Auschwitz I do not regard Professor Evans as being, if
13I may say so, authoritative. Therefore, you do not have
14to ask interminable questions about Auschwitz. What
15matters starts at about page 150, as I have said many
16times before.
17 MR IRVING:     If I am accused of putting things into documents
18which are not in the documents, this goes to the root of
19one of the principal libels on my name, my Lord. That is
20in line 4. That is why I will ask this witness now to go
21to page 57 of the bundle and see the document to which I
22am referring.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 54.
24 MR IRVING:     Page 57. Is this an invoice for the supply of
25Zyklon-B to Auschwitz concentration camp?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it appears to be.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you in your report say: "It makes no mention at all of
 2pest control"?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I do, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you now look at line 5 of the invoice, the typed
 5portion? Do you agree that it says: "This material was
 6sent to Auschwitz Abteilung, Entwesung und" ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. My mistake, Mr Irving.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is your mistake?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in other words, I did not fake and I did not distort
11and I did not insert and I did not manipulate on that
12particular document?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me read the paragraph. "The plates", we are still on
14the plates of your Nuremberg book, and the caption says:
15"Tonnes of Zyclon-B pellets, containing poisonous
16hydrogen cyanide, are shipped by the Degesch factory to
17the Pest Control division of Auschwitz and other camps
18including Oraneinburg in 1944". The delivery note, though,
19only concerns Auschwitz. I agree I overlooked the mention
20of the pest control in Auschwitz, but it does not affect
21the other camps.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     It does not affects the other camp? But that is not the
23point I am making here. It is just that once again I have
24been accused of distorting and manipulating and you have
25now admitted that you are wrong?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, no ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just as on the Spectator letter and other things.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- because you are illustrating, you have an illustration
 3there of a note to Auschwitz and you are making claims on
 4the basis of it about other camps.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to put to you all the other invoices which
 6I have in the file which show deliveries to the other
 7camps which makes the point. But the point I am making
 8here, will you accept that, is purely that you wrongly
 9accused me of mistranslating or distorting a document?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think I wrongly -- and I admit I am wrong on that
11point, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have already admitted that.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Footnote 60, very briefly, you reference there the
15Gerstein report. Will you now accept that the Gerstein
16report has been totally discredited by the people you call
17the Holocaust deniers because of the figures and ludicrous
18facts it contains?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I will not, no. As I have said, I am not an expert on
20this subject, but it is a report that is -- I will not
21accept simply on your word, that it has been discredited.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     The next footnote, No. 61, you refer to an interview
23between me and Radio Ulster, but, unfortunately, is not
24produced in any of the bundle of documents, so it is
25difficult for me to judge how accurate this is.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you help about that, Professor Evans?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot, I am afraid.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Do you know where the transcript is?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am unable to locate it, but we can quite well dispense
 4with that. There are plenty of other statements here on
 5which we can rely, as in the very next sentence: "There
 6were no gas chambers in Auschwitz" as you said on 5th
 7March 1990.
 8 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with the distinction between
 9Auschwitz and Birkenhau?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think we have been through this in this case, Mr Irving,
11and that ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, but I am asking you. Are you familiar ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is generally understood that when one talks about
14Auschwitz, one talks about the whole complex of all the
15various camps inside covered by the name of Auschwitz.
16When one talks about Birkenhau, that includes Birkenhau.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you been to Auschwitz?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not been to Auschwitz.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     So I cannot ask you and there is no point in my asking you
20questions about that. You refer on page 133 to the shower
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not, really not an expert on this. What I am trying
23to do here is to assemble evidence that you have denied
24that there are gas chambers, there were gas chambers
25in ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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