Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 201 - 205 of 215

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 1 MR IRVING:     Yes, but ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- that he was the head of the Nazi Political
 3Intelligence Unit.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     The question is ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That he was frequently with Hitler, and that he took part
 6in the Putsch.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     The question is, what evidence do you have that that
 8evidence was before me when I wrote my book on Hermann
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Because you read the transcript, you read the transcript
11of the trial which is where the evidence is.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     What evidence do you have that I read those pages of the
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not a very long testimony and you recount what you
15must have done, I cannot believe you did anything else,
16was to start at the beginning of Hofmann's testimony and
17go on to the end.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If your case is, Mr Irving, that you did not
19ever read Hofmann's testimony, then you should put that
20because that would be an explanation.
21 MR IRVING:     I hope that I was making that point, my Lord.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You were not. You were careful not to put it
23quite that way. You said: Have you got any got evidence
24that I had Hofmann's testimony in front of me? If your
25case is that you never read it, I think you should put

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 1 MR IRVING:     If I can explain to your Lordship, my problem is
 2that the entire Hermann Goring book was written on an old
 3fashioned Xerox word processor. I am having those disks
 4converted and I can then prove exactly what part of the
 5testimony was before me, but they have still not been
 6converted yet. It is just a technical problem. But I
 7will now put the question to the witness in this way.
 8     Was there any evidence before you that I had
 9read the Hofmann testimony?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The evidence of your book, yes. You quote the testimony
11in the book.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was there any evidence before you that I had read that
13part of the testimony relating to his Nazi party
14membership and to his closeness to Hitler on which you are
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not a very lengthy testimony, Mr Irving. It takes
17about I suppose ten minutes to read it.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you read this in a printed book or did you read it on
19the microfilm?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I just said that they are the same. I have read it in a
21volume, a multi-volume or a very large collection of
22documentary presentation edited by people on the staff of
23the Institute for Contemporary History in Munich.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you, did this printed volume have an index with
25names in it?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think so, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do my microfilms with 8,000 pages on film have an index
 2with names on it?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, but it is not difficult to ----
 4 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I am afraid I think again we are going
 5out into outer space. In cross-examination on 31st
 6January, page 61, Mr Irving said to me: "I knew nothing
 7about Hofmann's background that was not before the court.
 8I read the entire court transcript which was many
 9thousands of pages which was adequate for writing a
10biography of Hermann Goring."
11 MR IRVING:     Yes. Do you accept that if some ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is why I think it is important.
13 MR IRVING:     I will now clarify this matter.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that bears out, if I may say so, the
15correctness of what I said to you. If your case was that
16you had never read the testimony, then you ought to have
17put it. But it now turns out that actually you have
18already conceded that you read the whole thing.
19 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, when somebody reads an 8,000 page
20transcript of a trial for the purposes of writing a
21biography of a very minor character in that trial, is he
22going, in your opinion, to pay attention to the background
23of every single witness who gives evidence at that trial?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, Mr Irving, you read the entire transcript. You read
25all of Hofmann's testimony, which is fairly brief. You
26use it in your ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you estimate to the court how brief this testimony
 2was in terms of typescript pages?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So it takes ten minutes to read, I think?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, something like that. I have actually read it.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, again I intervene. I think sometimes
 6I live in a parallel universe. I asked Mr Irving in
 7cross-examination what that passage in the book was where
 8he says that Goring goggled at the exchange between Hitler
 9and the young lieutenant.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I remember.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving said: "That was Hofmann, was it, that
12testified about that? Answer: Yes. Yes, the whole
13episode is based on Hofmann."
14 MR IRVING:     The fact that the whole episode is based on Hofmann
15does not presuppose that one has read the whole of Hofmann
16with great detail as to his origins, his party membership
17number and all the other matters on which Professor Evans
18is relying.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I have the typed pages here.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     The printed pages or the typescript pages?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, the printed pages.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we now know that they are the same.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The printed version is called [German] which is the
24verbatim account of the principal proceedings before the
25people's court at Munich 1, and Hofmann, in other words,
26it is a verbatim account, it is the same. Hofmann's

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 1testimony begins on this printed version, that is on
 2seventh day, it begins on page 540, and goes on to page
 3545 I think, a little bit further. It is really not very
 4long. In any case, Mr Irving, if you read the entire
 58,000 pages you certainly must have read those handful of
 7 MR IRVING:     Will you accept that when one reads 8,000 pages of
 8a transcript of a treason trial one is not paying
 9attention to the political background of the individual
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, certainly not. It is extremely important. You
12present yourself as a professional historian who has an
13extremely critical attitude towards written evidence,
14particularly in trial testimonies as it happens, and here
15you have the testimony of somebody in an important trial
16of Hitler in 1924, a fairly brief testimony, and this is
17somebody who is the head of a political intelligence
18section of the Nazi party who is with Hitler a great deal,
19who is quite clearly a Nazi party member, so closely
20associated with the Nazis and with the Putsch that the
21court actually mentions the fact; at the beginning and at
22the end the judge congratulates Hofmann for being so loyal
23to his Fuhrer. This right through the evidence, Hofmann
24makes no secret of it all in his evidence, and you
25suppress this entirely. You present the evidence of this
26police officer as an entirely neutral statement. You

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