Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 215

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good.
 2 MR IRVING:     Would you look at that quotation at the top of page
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     208? Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Have you left anything out of that quotation, do you
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not that I can see.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is about the euthanasia programme, is it not?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I start reading about where it says: "About a quarter
11of a million hospital beds", I am going to read it from
12the book which is the actual source, which is the 1977
13edition at page 20?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could I have a copy, please? Page 20?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. "About a quarter of a million hospital beds were
16required" -- this is the actual text -- "for Germany's
17mental institutions for Germany's disproportionately large
18insane population, a result of centuries of lax and
19indiscriminate marriage laws: of some 7 or 800,000 people
20all told, about 10 per cent were permanently
21institutionalized. Others were in and out of hospitals.
22They occupied bed space and the attention of skilled
23medical personnel which Hitler now urgently needed for the
24treatment of the casualties of his coming campaigns". You
25missed passages out without indicating it, have you not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me just have a look at this.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Three passages have vanished?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let me try to sort this out. Certainly, those two
 3passages, the passage you read and this passage, would
 4seem to indicate that. Now, here I refer to, it is
 5actually pages 227 to 8 of the 1991 edition that I am
 6citing, as you can see from the bottom of the previous
 7page. Could I have the 1991 edition, please? We have 227
 8to 8. No, it is the wrong one. 227 to 8.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     About a third of the way down.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right, let me read this from page 227 of the 1991
11edition: "About a quarter of a million hospital beds were
12required for Germany's disproportionate large insane
13population: of some 7 or 800,000 victims of insanity all
14told, about 10 per cent were permanently
15institutionalized. They occupied bed space and the
16attention of skilled medical personnel which Hitler now
17urgently needed for the treatment of the casualties of his
18coming campaigns".
19     So I have quoted absolutely correctly from the
20source that I give without any omissions at all.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have not actually realized that, in fact, the
22original quotation was fuller and you preferred the
23abbreviated version to base your ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, really! What sort of a point is
26 MR IRVING:     Page 209.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     May I just say, Mr Irving, I think you are entirely right
 2to condense that quotation because the reference to lax
 3marriage laws in 1977 is entirely wrong. German marriage
 4laws up to the middle of the 19th century, in most of
 5south Germany, at least, were extremely strict. As you
 6say yourself, you are condensing all the way along. There
 7is no fault in that.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 209, paragraph 4.1.8 please. This is the Night of
 9the Long Knives?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, could you remind me?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     4.1.8, 209?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     209? Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     209, you say in the final sentence of that paragraph
144.1.8: "Irving defended the Night of the Long Knives in
15June 1934". This is rather like saying I applauded the
16Holocaust, is it not?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I think it is somewhat different.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I "defended the Night of the Long Knives"?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I go on in the next paragraph to outline your views. You
20say that "the SA was planning to" was underlined --
21"overthrow Hitler's government". "In an act of rare
22magnanimity Hitler ordered state pensions provided for the
23next of kin of the people murdered in the Knight of the
24Long Knives. Even so he began to suffer nightmares and
25could not sleep" although, in fact, as I point out, Hitler
26personally marked crosses against the names of

.   P-173

 1considerable numbers of people that he ordered to be
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to come to that in a minute. The idea of
 4defending the Night of the Long Knives suggests that I
 5defended the murder of people when they were planning a
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the nub of it, of course, is were they planning a
 8revolution or not.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And in any case, and also, of course, the murder, that was
11done wholly outside the judicial process.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I establish in a biography of Hitler that, in fact,
13these SA leaders were plotting something, this is not the
14same as defending their murder, do you agree with that?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think it is -- I am prepared to jettison the word
16"defending" and say "excusing". We have been down this
17road before.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Excusing" is almost as bad as "defending". But can we
19now move to the next paragraph where you are saying that
20the charges were trumped up. Do you not accept that the
21brown shirt movement were, in fact, planning the overthrow
22of the Nazi government of Germany?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think the evidence is very thin.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read various works on the subject, for example,
25by Heinz Werner?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have read some.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you have read some works, but just on the basis of
 2having read some works, you are prepared to say that I am
 3wrong and that these other authors are wrong?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let me see what I say. You see: "Most authors have
 5seen the Night of the Long Knives as a shocking violation
 6of moral and legal norms" ----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     ---- "in which Hitler not only brought retrospectively
 9trumped-up charges against the SA leaders of plotting a
10coup, but also used the opportunity to bump off
11politicians, such as Kurt von Schleicher and Gustav von
12Kahr, who he felt knew too much about his past, or whom he
13simply strongly disliked, and against whom no conceivable
14political suspicions could be directed in 1934".
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the basis of your limited knowledge of the Night of the
16Long Knives, what evidence do you have that Hitler ordered
17the murder of Schleicher which was an appalling act --
18there is no question -- that Hitler was personally
19involved in that? Do you have any evidence?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not present it here, no. I would have to do some
21research on that.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     And what evidence do you have for saying that Hitler
23personally ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me respond to that by saying can you present evidence
25that he did not? Maybe that is the way to go.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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