Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 215

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    --- who published the Goring biography. "I have been
 1function in Los Angeles next February. They have offered
 2a substantial fee and all my expenses and until now I have
 3adopted a policy of never refusing an invitation if the
 4organizers meet my terms, namely free speech and fat fee.
 5On this occasion I intend to give the audience a piece of
 6my mind about some of their more lunatic views". Does it
 7say that?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does indeed, yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in other words, I do not just express views about
10crack pot anti-Semites and crack pot ideas or whatever as
11an alibi, but on the evidence of this letter (which
12I found in the early hours of this morning by chance) on
13quite a few occasions I have expressed robust views about
14people I associate with?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This, Mr Irving, is not evidence of what you actually said
16at this meeting, if you indeed went to it. It is simply a
17letter to a publisher, obviously. You do not say what
18their lunatic views are and there is no evidence here that
19you have gave them a piece of mind.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who was the right-wing organization holding a
21meeting in?
22 MR IRVING:     That was the IHR, my Lord. That was precisely this
23body, the Institute of Historical Review, who at that time
24were under different management, if I can put it like
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So the lunatic views attached to the old

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 1management, not to the present regime, is that it?
 2 MR IRVING:     I shall be submitting to your Lordship at the
 3proper occasion that as the years passed, I tried to
 4persuade them to adopt a more serious profile, to invite
 5respected historians as well as more unorthodox
 6revisionist historians and try to straighten their act
 7out, if I can put it like that. There is correspondence
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So you did have an association that enabled
10you to bring that sort of pressure to bear, did you?
11 MR IRVING:     Oh, yes. They looked to me. They were constantly
12wooing me and I wrote them letters saying, "In my view,
13you should do this and you should do that", and I am sure
14they got similar advice from other people.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
16 MR IRVING:     Thank you. So do you accept that on the basis of
17those two letters I had a robust attitude towards the
18Institute which indicated I was in no manner travelling in
19their tow or in their wake?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, what is the other letter?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, on the basis of the Ron Rosenbaum ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, yes, the interview.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- matter and this letter.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have to say that on the basis of having read your
25speeches or articles in the Institute and its Journal that
26you did come to them in the 80s for the first time that

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 1you went to speak at the Institute with what seems to me
 2like a certain apprehension of the fact that your views
 3would differ somewhat from theirs, but this disappears, in
 4my view, entirely in the 1990s when you were a regular
 5attender at their conferences and a regular speaker.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     At their conferences I regularly rubbed their noses in
 7what actually happened in the Holocaust and that I read
 8out the Bruns' interrogation report in all its gory detail
 9of the shootings on the Eastern Front, and that I was held
10up to criticism by some of their members for doing this?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You read out parts of the Bruns' report, excluding the
12reference to Hitler's order which we went through sometime
13ago in this trial. You have a very selective version of
14it. I think you did say at the beginning of this trial
15you had not actually read it out before.
16     I do not deny that there were some arguments in
17discussion (as there always is in discussions) after your
18speeches, but in the 1990s I think you were purveying the
19same views as they had on the whole. There were some
20minor differences between yourself, in particular,
21Professor Faurisson, but your speeches to the Institute of
22Historical Review did not meet with jeers and cat calls,
23as I recall.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     They did not meet with jeers and cat calls. Do you
25believe that a body like the Institute of Revisionist
26Historians, or whatever they call themselves, performs any

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 1useful function at all?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you accept that without the existence of such a body
 4there would have been such major concessions in the
 5Holocaust story that have occurred since the end of World
 6War II?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, to the question and no to the premise.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have there been major concessions in the story since the
 9end of World War II?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You would have to tell me exactly what they were and
11demonstrate that they were based on the work of the
12Institute of Historical Review before I accepted that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it true that the Israeli authority at Yad Vashim now
14officially agree that the Nazis never manufactured soap
15from bodies?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that has long been the case. Indeed ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you put a date on it?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I cannot, no.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was it about 1989?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would have to see documentation of that.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that the figure of Auschwitz has been brought
22down from 4 million to 1.5 million?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have already been through that.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We had this, I think, last Thursday.
25 MR IRVING:     I am just trying to look at the concessions that
26have been made largely as a result of revisionist

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 1agitation, if I can put it like that?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think, Mr Irving, that that was the result of the
 3work of the Institute of Historical Review which was not
 4founded at the time that that number was changed.
 5 MR IRVING:     Have you read the work of Michael Berenbaum -- I am
 6sorry, of Aberhard Jackeln who states that it was not
 7until 1977 that the whole of this Holocaust research
 8industry began, that the historians started doing their
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think we have already been through that, I think, when
11you cross-examined Professor Browning, that certainly
12I would need to see a copy of that statement by Professor
13Jackeln, but if he does say that, then he is certainly not
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You would not agree, therefore, that the revisionists,
16having created the Aunt Sally which the genuine historians
17needed, the scholars needed, you do not agree with the
18premise that the scholar would not have done the job as
19rigorously as they have had to?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, not at all, no. I have to say, on the whole, I do not
21serious scholars pay any attention to the work of the
22Institute of Historical Review at all.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I wonder whether the time has not
24come to move on to what is important which is page 205,
25what you have written about Hitler.
26 MR IRVING:     Well, I, in fact, leapt on to page 207, my Lord.

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