Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 215

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is impossible to tell who you are talking about.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you surprised to hear somebody ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     As I say here, you say this without actually saying who
 4you meant by this or what kind of damage or harm you are
 5referring to ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it surprise you to hear that ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- the damage done to you.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- I regard a number of these Holocaust deniers as
 9"cracked anti-Semites"?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not read anything that you have written that refers
11specifically to any specific individual or organization as
12being "cracked anti-Semites", only these very, very
13general statements which really have very little value
14because they have no precision, no reference.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     They have no precision, but this is as represented by a
16neutral observer who has spoken to a lot of authors, and
17do you accept that -- are you surprised to read in a book
18that I have described Holocaust deniers as "cracked
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have -- some Holocaust deniers. What you say, "there
21are certain organizations that propagate these theories
22which are cracked anti-Semites" but it is impossible to
23say who you are referring to.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now, Rosenbaum's book was reviewed, thank goodness, by
25Norman Stone who pointed out that Rosenbaum is yet another
26of these ignorant, negligent reviewers whom have met

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 1before, is that is correct; that he had not done his
 2homework and he did not know enough to write such a book
 3properly? Is that the next paragraph's burden, 3.6.2?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me just have a look. He says that stone was critical
 5of Rosenbaum. He said he could not follow subjects, he
 6had misunderstood one of books he was writing about. That
 7is certainly the case, yes. It is a critical review.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So why did you mention the Rosenbaum book because
 9you do accept that there are serious authors out there who
10accept that I am not a Holocaust denier and that I do have
11differentiated views and that I regard Holocaust deniers
12as "crack pots" and you could not get passed this?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Nobody says that you regard Holocaust deniers as crack
14pots. What you say is that there are certain
15organizations, unnamed, that propagate these theories
16which are cracked anti-Semites. You do not say that all
17Holocaust deniers are crack pots.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it matter what the name of the organization is if I
19just refer to Holocaust ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, of course it does because this is so vague it is
21completely meaningless. It is just -- I mean, one could
22read this as just some kind of alibi. It has no reference
23at all. It is a meaningless statement unless you actually
24say who you are talking about.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I could hardly be more specific.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Put to him the organizations that you regard

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 1as consisting of cracked anti-Semites. Is the IHR one of
 3 MR IRVING:     I did, my Lord, and he waffled. We did not get a
 4clear answer.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let me say ----
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So your case is -- I want to be clear about
 7this -- you do regard the IHR as an organization
 8consisting of cracked anti-Semites, is that your case?
 9 MR IRVING:     I think that the correct thing to say there is that
10it consists of some elements which are cracked
11anti-Semites. I do not think I would wish to brand an
12entire organization. As far as I know, some of the
13officers of that organization, I would regard them as
14cracked anti-Semites. That is the point I wanted to make
15plain in my discussion with Mr Rosenbaum, but I
16would respectfully submit ----
17 MR RAMPTON:     I would like to know who those people are. It has
18some bearing on what is to come.
19 MR IRVING:     Your time will come in cross-examination,
20Mr Rampton, to ask that question, and it would be helpful
21if you did not interrupt. I would say that ----
22 MR RAMPTON:     Perhaps it would have more value, my Lord, if it
23came directly now, otherwise we may find a list composed
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, if I may say so, Mr Rampton, since
26Mr Irving has taken the point that he does not want to say

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 1at this stage in the course of his cross-examination of
 2Professor Evans, I think he is entitled to say that.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     All right.
 4 MR IRVING:     And I would respectfully submit ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     However, Mr Irving, if you were, of course -- if you do
 6think that the certain organizations that propagate these
 7theories and certain organizations, not individuals, which
 8are cracked anti-Semites and if the Institute of
 9Historical Review is an organization which is cracked
10anti-Semites, then it is extraordinary that you should
11have spoken so regularly at their meetings in the course
12of the 1990s.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you consider this view, as you just stated, expressed
14to Mr Rosenbaum, as a kind of alibi that I just use to
15people like him?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, in its vagueness, it sounds rather like that to me,
17but I am speculating there. I am simply quoting your
18statements here.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this the only occasion when I have expressed such a
20view, to your knowledge, having had complete access to all
21my papers?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think there is one other occasion, but I cannot recall
23exactly where it is.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I suggest you look at page 90 of my bundle, please?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     A letter to "Dear Connie" -- does your Lordship have it?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, when you say your bundle, do you mean
 3 MR IRVING:     Bundle F, yes.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     90, that is a letter.
 5 MR IRVING:     "Dear Connie""?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have this, yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Dear Miss Kadashka" I have got at page 90.
 8 MR IRVING:     No, it has to be "Dear Connie".
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mine is 89, but it does not matter.
10 MR IRVING:     Is this letter dated June 24th 1988?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this about two months after I read the Leuchter report,
13in other words, two months after the Zundel conference --
14the Zundel trial?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The trial.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You will have to remind.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is right. Take it from me.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Is that right? OK.
20 MR IRVING:     Can I read to you the final paragraph or the bits
21thereof? First of all, looking at the address at the
22bottom, am I writing to my publishers, William Morrow &
23Company in New York ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- who published the Goring biography. "I have been
26invited to speak as a guest speaker at a right wing

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