Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 215

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think the tenor of that obituary is positive, that is my
 3reading of it.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Proceed now to paragraph 15, please, on page 198, the last
 5sentence on that line. You say that the activities which
 6led to the imprisonment of my friend Gunter
 7Deckert included translating a lecture".
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have got this.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware of the fact that Gunter Deckert served a
10seven year prison sentence for translating that lecture?
11Do you approve of that?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not sure what the question is meant to elucidate.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just answer the question. Are you aware that he served a
14seven year prison sentence?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a fair enquiry. So what?
16 MR IRVING:     It goes indirectly to the political situation in
17Germany where all the historians are encouraged to write
18history one way, and they are sent to prison for seven
19years if they breathe a word in the other direction or if
20they even translate a lecture, my Lord.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that has anything to do with
22this case.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Deckert is not an academic historian. He is Federal
24Chairman of the National Democratic Party, which is an
25extreme right-wing political organization in Germany in
26the early 1990s. He has a number of convictions for

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 1incitement to racial hatred, insulting the memory of the
 2dead, slandering the Chairman of the Central Council of
 3Jews in Germany, and other similar offences. The
 4activities which led to his imprisonment, I say, included
 5translating a lecture.
 6 MR IRVING:     Are you answering the question or just making a
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am, because you have misrepresented what I said in my
 9report yet again Mr Irving. The activities which led to
10his imprisonment included translating a lecture given in
111991 by Fred Leuchter, denying existence of gas chambers
12at Auschwitz. Then I quote you, "Dear Gunter", you write
13to him, "I am shocked about what the police state has done
14to you yet again". You describe him as a freedom fighter
15and so on, defender of this great cause, which presumably
16is the cause of Holocaust denial.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say, "presumably is Holocaust denial"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What else?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this just your interpolation?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What is this great cause that you write about or speak
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am only going to ask you one question. Do you approve
23of people being imprisoned for translating?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, you do not need to answer that question.
25 MR IRVING:     Exactly. I do not really want to ask questions
26about Deckert here. I think this is not the appropriate

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 1place to ask questions about Deckert.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then we can move on.
 3 MR IRVING:     I was rather shocked that he was allowed to
 4continue just reading out the whole of that paragraph. In
 5paragraph 16 you summarize. You say: "In general,
 6therefore, Irving's close association with virtually all
 7the most prominent Holocaust deniers in several different
 8countries demonstrates once more that he is to be counted
 9amongst their number". How many have you actually dealt
10with in this chapter? About five people?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Goodness. Do you really want me to count, Mr Irving?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of the order of five or ten? I am not counting their
13fathers, just the actual people.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think the senior Hancock is a Holocaust denier. Eleven,
15I think.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Eleven.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There are not very many of these people.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     There are not very many, exactly, and we have already
19discovered that I had no contact with Mr Ahmed Rami, who
20is paragraph 13.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have dealt with Mr Rami.
22 MR IRVING:     I am just saying, my Lord. I am just knocking some
23off this 13.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We not going to go back through all of them.
25 MR IRVING:     We have discovered that General Remer in fact was
26only talked to once. This is the quality of the evidence

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 1I am up against. This grandiose closing sentence,
 2"Irving's close association with virtually all the most
 3prominent Holocaust deniers".
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is cross-examination, Mr Irving, not a
 5speech. So move on to your next question, if you would?
 6 MR IRVING:     Then on page 200, you conclude at 3.6.1.: "Not
 7everyone who has studied Irving's writings and speeches in
 8the 1990s has reached the conclusion that he has become a
 9consistent and undeviating Holocaust denier". You then
10mention one or two cases, do you not, and immediately bang
11them on the head for it?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I felt it fair to mention that. I did not want to
13suppress that fact.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you accept what they say?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Halfway down that paragraph you say: "Moreover, in the
17course of his conversation with Rosenbaum", now he is a
18Jewish writer, is that correct?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That had not occurred to me actually. If you say he is
20Jewish, I do not usually think about whether people are
21Jewish or not when I read their writings.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Answer my question. Is it likely that if he is a Jewish
23writer he is probably not going to be disposed to me in a
24very friendly way initially until he gets to know me, is
25that correct?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it seems to be -- I do not accept that, no.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Moreover, in the course of his conversation with
 2Mr Rosenbaum, Irving admitted", you say, "of some
 3Holocaust deniers 'that there are certain organizations
 4that propagate these theories which are cracked
 5anti-Semites'". Does that show that I am a great admirer
 6of these organizations?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I do not know. You do not say, or Rosenbaum does
 8not say, what organizations you are referring to, so it is
 9impossible to guess.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, you would not expect a Holocaust denier like David
11Irving roundly to dismiss other organizations of Holocaust
12deniers as "cracked anti-Semites"?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do you do not mention what those organizations are. It
14would be more plausible, more plausible if you did.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, what organizations do you think I was talking about
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I really ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do you not put to the witness which
19organizations you...
20 MR IRVING:     My Lord, that was going to be the follow up
21question when he answered, "No, I do not know which ones"
22and I was going to say could it possibly be -- would I
23have been talking about the Institute of Historical
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You do not mention them.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Would I have been talking ----

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