Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 215

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not exactly the same.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     If a journalist comes and speaks to me and asks me for an
 3interview, and I give him an interview, and he then passes
 4that interview on to a magazine which is called Der
 5Freiwillige, which I have never heard of from start to
 6finish, and you say that that is the house magazine of
 7HIAG, which may or may not be true, and you say this is
 8evidence of me having contacts (in the plural) with HIAG?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I assume that someone must have set up the interview
10and that then you must have had the interview. Is this in
11the court's record, because I have a photocopy of this
12here. This is another one of my written answers. I am
13not quite sure why we are going through all these written
14answers to your written questions, I do not accept that
15you were not aware of who was doing the interview or where
16it was going to be published.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you are suggesting that I have contacts with HIAG,
18which is a pretty serious and almost indeed a repugnant
19allegation to make. You are saying I do not have just the
20one contact through a journalist but I have contacts in
21the plural with them. You have already withdrawn the
22previous part of this sinister allegation about being a
23contact with a sinister denier, Mr Remer, and it turns out
24that this contact too just turns out to be an interview
25with a journalist?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think it is just a journalist, Mr Irving,

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 1otherwise why would he have adopted what appears to be
 3 MR IRVING:     What you think is neither here nor there. It is not
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please, Mr Irving, there is no point in
 6asking questions if you constantly interrupt the answers.
 7I expect you have forgotten what the question is; I have
 8certainly forgotten.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. This is not just any old journalist who then gives
10you an interview and then kind of hawks it around until he
11somehow, by some extraordinary chance, comes across the
12house magazine of the Waffen SS Veterans Association and
13manages to find a spot for it there. This is clearly
14somebody who is acting on behalf of this organization and
15its house magazine who comes and interviews you.
16 MR IRVING:     Then you invite two further questions. Have you
17found in my private diaries, to which of course you had
18complete access for the purposes of this trial, any
19suggestion of any contact between myself and the HIAG or
20any of its officials whatsoever?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I have not. That does not mean to say of course that
22there were not any.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you found in all my files of correspondence, to which
24of course you have also had complete access by way of
25discovery, any suggestion of contact between myself and
26the HIAG whatsoever?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, but it is the sort of thing you would like to keep
 2quiet, is it not?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The sort of thing I would like to keep quiet? Are you
 4suggesting that I have destroyed ----?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You have just denied all knowledge of this magazine and
 6this interview, and you describe it as "some journalist"
 7who came to you without your knowing what the source was
 8and where he was going to place the interview.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     By your reference to "the sort of thing I would like to
10keep quiet", are you alleging that I have destroyed
11materials instead of properly discovering them?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did not understand that to be the
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
15 MR IRVING:     Because it is a very serious allegation to make.
16In fact, it is a criminal charge.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not saying you destroyed materials, Mr Irving.
18 MR IRVING:     Destroying evidence instead of producing it for
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have no evidence that you have destroyed any.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have no evidence whatsoever that I have destroyed
22material, rather than produce it for discovery?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He did not say that.
24 MR RAMPTON:     What he said was it does not appear in the diary
25and he is not surprised it does not, considering what a
26tainted piece of information it is.

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 1 MR IRVING:     That is not what he said. We were talking about
 2the letters.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     As a matter of fact, it is, Mr Irving, but
 4I am not going spend time reading back the transcript to
 5you because I am very anxious that we move on.
 6 MR IRVING:     The witness has referred to the obituary of General
 7Remer. Can I ask that his Lordship be shown the actual
 8text of the obituary to General Remer which I published?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If there is a reason for my doing so, yes.
10 MR IRVING:     Because he says I published an obituary of him
11praising him. In fact, I made it quite plain that he is a
12reprobate and an unreconstructed Nazi, and I think that
13words like that should be before the court.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I suppose, yes, if you want me to look
15at it.
16 MR IRVING:     Unless your Lordship wishes to move on, in which
17case we can move on.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. If you say that is wrong, I had better
19look at it.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     May I just read it then? It is quite short.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, do.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     General Remer is dead. "Famed German Army General Otto
23Ernzt Remer, who was forced into exile by Bonn in 1994,
24died in Spain 1985 on October 4th. Born in Brandenborg on
25December 18, 1912 Remer played the key role in crushing
26the uprising against Adolf Hitler by disgruntled officers

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 1and disaffected aristocrats on July 20th 1924 .
 2Originally sent by the plotters to arrest propaganda
 3minister Dr Goebbels, he learned that Hitler had survived
 4the bomb, recognised His Master's voice on the phone, and
 5acted swiftly against the plotters. His troops put them to
 6death by firing squad in Berlin a few hours later.
 7Described by baffled newspaper men as an unreconstructed
 8Nazi, Remer remained loyal to the old cause. In 1950 he
 9founded the socialist Reichs party. In March 1952 he was
10jailed for three months for slandering the July 1944
11plotters as traitors. The SRP was banned. He allowed his
12name to be used by German revisionists publishing the
13Remer despatch in 1994, sentenced to two years jail
14despite his medals for heroism, advancing years and
15illness. He was wheelchair bound and breathed with an
16oxygen pump. He took refuge in Spain. The Spanish
17government resisted repeated demands by German prosecutors
18for his extradition, saying that his "offences" did not
19exist as such under Spanish law. He is survived by his
20widow Marie Oberstein."
21 MR IRVING:     So I draw attention to the fact that he founded
22this neo-Nazi party, the Reichs party, and I say that he
23was described as an unreconstructed Nazi, and you left
24that out in the references that you published in your
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     By baffled newspaper men.

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