Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 215

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    Let me read the passage from my report: "Anthony Hancock
 11980s and Hancock was filmed at a Holocaust denial meeting
 2in Munich at which Irving was a guest of honour, and there
 3were various mentions in your diary of the older Hancock
 4who is offering funds and facilities to publish the
 5Churchill biography". I am simply trying to establish
 6there that you have connections with these two Holocaust
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     This word "Holocaust denier" has become quite frequently
 9fixed in your vocabulary, has it not, 300 times in this
10report alone?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I was asked, Mr Irving, to comment on that.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not rise to the bait.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, we have been through that many times before,
14my Lord.
15 MR IRVING:     Everybody who is sinister is suddenly called a
16Holocaust denier and it begins to grate after a time. Can
17you look at paragraph 11 now? This is the next
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I will not rise to that, Mr Irving, on his Lordship's
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Here we are: "Perhaps the most sinister of the Holocaust
22deniers with whom Irving has had extensive and long term
23contacts was General Otto Ernst Remer". Is that still
24your view?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the way to cross-examine, if I may
26say, on this sort of allegation is, I do not know what the

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 1facts are, but, Professor Evans, do you realize that I
 2have only met the man twice, or whatever? Asking him if
 3it is still his view is not going to help. Just put what
 4you say is wrong with the proposition that you have had
 5long term contacts with him. That is really the quickest
 6way of dealing with it.
 7 MR IRVING:     Will you turn to page 91 of bundle F, please. Is
 8that a page from my diary dated July 22nd 1989?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, which page?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     91 or thereabouts.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Something may have gone wrong with the
13 MR IRVING:     It has. Towards the end it has become a bit
14screwed up. It will be at the end somewhere.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I am sorry, I do not seem to have it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Bundle F?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think 91, oddly enough, seems to be
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I do not have it, my Lord.
20 MR IRVING:     It will be one of the last two or three pages, a
21page headed July 22nd 1989.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not have it. I think it should be after
23the Spectator letter, and it is not. Some people have
24it. I am sorry, I just do not have it.
25 MR IRVING:     The content is almost immaterial. Have you found
26it, Professor?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I have not, but I am familiar with it.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a one page entry from my diary July 22nd 1989. Does
 3it refer to my driving to a place called Vlotho, and
 4meeting a general called Remer?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. If it helps, this is dealt with in my written
 6responses. It would hurry things up a bit.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now I come to the question which his Lordship wishes me to
 8ask. Will you agree that this is the only one time or
 9occasion on which I have ever met General Remer and had a
10conversation with him?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I will withdraw the "extensive and long term
12contacts". You had contacts with him in 1989 at that
13particular occasion that you mention. There Remer was
14present at Munich on 21st April 1990 when you were
15speaking. You were to have spoken to a meeting which was
16cancelled, a meeting alongside side Remer in 1991.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry to halt your flood of rhetoric but can I read
18out to you your first sentence of paragraph 11, please?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You had plenty of close and repeated contacts with----
20 MR RAMPTON:     I do believe that Mr Irving is occasionally guilty
21of discourtesy. My Lord. I would not interrupt a witness
22like that in that aggressive----
23 MR IRVING:     I have to interrupt, Mr Rampton, because otherwise
25 MR RAMPTON:     I am speaking to his Lordship, Mr Irving. Please
26remain quiet. I am making an objection to the way in

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 1which Mr Irving is attempting to harrass the witness.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The objection is entirely well founded.
 3Would you like to pick it up where you left off, Professor
 4Evans, which was you were talking of a meeting in 1991.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, and you had repeated contacts with Karl Philip, who
 6was Remer's assistant in 1989 to 1991, page 1967. I
 7mention the meeting in Munich again, and of course your
 8Action Report website carried an obituary praising Remer
 9as loyal to the old cause. So what I think I say I is
10that I withdraw "extensive and long term contacts" and
11I would say that you were in contact with General Remer in
12the period 1989 to 1991 1.
13 MR IRVING:     Can I now read into the record therefore the
14sentence which you are withdrawing: "Perhaps the most
15sinister of the Holocaust deniers with whom Irving has had
16extensive and long term contacts was General Otto Ernst
17Remer", and it turns out I had a conversation with him
18only once. As your Lordship will see from the diary
19entry, it was an entirely proper conversation where I
20interviewed him for the purpose of the Goebbels book and
21all the rest is waffle.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have said I would withdraw "extensive and long term". I
23hope that satisfies you.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     On 197, five lines from the bottom, you say: "He (Irving
25in other words), was active" ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, sorry. That is a mistake. That is Remer.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you are not suggesting that I was active in the HIAG?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. That is a misunderstanding on your part, Mr Irving.
 3It refers back to Remer early in the sentence.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     I continue: "He was active in the HIAG, an organisation
 5for ex members of the SS with which Irving also had
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now what on earth is the source for that particular
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The February 1979 issue of the HIAG house magazine Der
11Frewillige, volunteer, carries an interview with you by
12someone called Joachim Cannicht, which I presume is a
13pseudonym, and one presumes therefore that contact with
14the magazine and thus with its parent organization were
15necessary in order to set up and carry out the interview
16unless you are telling me you did not give the interview
17or you were not aware of who was doing it.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     So a journalist does or does not have an interview with
19me, which he then passes on to a magazine which publishes
20it, which you say has contacts with the HIAG and out of
21that connection you say I had contacts with the HIAG. In
22other words, if I gave an interview to the Tablet, would I
23have contacts with the Pope? Is what you are suggesting?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is very different. This is the house
25magazine of the Waffen SS Veterans Association, Mr Irving.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is exactly the same, is it not?

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