Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 215

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is not what I do precisely what a balanced and neutral
 2observer should do? He should provide material on the one
 3side, material on the other side, and easy instantaneous
 4links by Internet to people with a totally contradictory
 5point of view? Is that not what I do? The Holocaust
 6History Project, Niscore, these are web sites with a
 7viewpoint that are completely the opposite and yet I put
 8an instant and easy link to them.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but what you are doing here is suggesting that these
10are two equal sides of some academic scholarly argument
11and therefore you, as it were, give yourself credence and
12respectability by doing that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Your final sentence on that page says, "In other words,
14Irving is using his website to publicize Holocaust denial
15material", but you do agree that I publicize the other
16side of the story too, do I not?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, you do.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     You think there is only one side of the story that should
19be publicised? Is that your viewpoint?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think that the Internet should be used to
21publicise phoney, fake and falsifying material.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You would like to see it censored, would you? You would
23like to have automatic filters installed? Is that what
24you are saying?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not saying that at all. I am saying it is your
26responsibility for what you do.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, to say that I only publicise Holocaust
 2denial material, as you call it ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think I do that. I do not say that.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You accept that on my website I also put documents giving
 5the other point of view?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think he said that two or three times.
 7 MR IRVING:     Yes. Thank you very much. Can you now turn to
 8page 193? I am now going to look briefly at the DVU, the
 9Deutsche Volks-Union, the German People's Union. Can you
10estimate approximately how long that political
11organization has been active in Germany? About 20 years
12or 30 years?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     My Lord, I am not the expert on this. I understand there
14is another expert report on this.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that Professor Funke?
16 MR IRVING:     Yes. That is why I am only going to question you
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is coming. I think he is a better chap to
19ask about DVU.
20 MR IRVING:     I am only going to question him very briefly, my
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am only concerned with it here in so far as it is
23connected with or purveys Holocaust denial.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It does not seem to me the best point in the
25world anyway, so let us move on and leave that for
26Professor Funke.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Just the last line of that paragraph, my Lord, in
 2case Professor Funke does not raise it. "Mr Irving had
 3also been asked by the DVU 'to do lucrative research in
 4the Berlin Document Centre'". That is a quotation from my
 5diary. Is that right, May 19th, 1984?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     About 16 years ago. Are you familiar with the lucrative
 8research that Dr Frey of DVU asked me to do in the Berlin
 9Document Centre?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Remind me.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it right that the Berlin Document Centre at that time
12was an American government organization which held the
13entire biographical records on all the top Nazis?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Millions and millions of them?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. A lot, anyway.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it evident from my diary and from the papers that have
18been put before you that the research that Dr. Frey and
19the DVU asked me to was to weasel out the ex Nazis in the
20German government, get hold of their biographical records
21showing they were members of the Nazi party, and is this a
22despicable thing to have done, or in any way would you
23wish to criticise that kind of operation?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It depends for the purposes for which they want to do it.
25For all I know, they may want to do it to make contact
26with them and applaud them.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the spirit of his Lordship's admonition, I shall move
 2on. Just briefly though, you do accept that the German
 3People's Union has at all times been a legal body and has
 4never ever come up against the legal authorities in
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think this is more a matter for Professor Funke, really
 7but I understand that it has been under constant
 8observation by the Germans, or for a considerable time
 9under observation by the German Office for the Protection
10of the Constitution at various land branches of that, as
11I say, an extreme right-wing organization.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 195, we are now on a Mr Anthony Hancock. Again, I am
13not going to deal with him in any detail because
14I understand that I am going to be cross-examined on
15Mr Hancock so that is probably the right time to deal with
16that unless your Lordship feels I should fill in any of
17the detail. I am only concerned with the fact that you
18drag in not only Anthony Hancock, but his father, saying
19that he was a former member of Oswald Mosley's
20blackshirts. Should this be held against him?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I seem to remember that, when I was last in the High Court
2330 years ago, the judge was Mr Justice Lawton, and he had
24also been a member of that organization before the war.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     My own view of this is, if may say so,
26Professor Evans, by all means criticise Mr Irving for his

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 1relationship with Anthony Hancock if he is a member of the
 2National Front and so on, but I cannot for life of me see
 3what relevance his father's membership of the blackshirts
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am happy to have that left out. It is of no great
 6importance to my report.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It is gratuitous and I personally do not think it has
 8any significance at all, so I am entirely with you,
 9Mr. Irving, if I may say so.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I understood that both of them published, Did 6 million
11really die, by Richard Harwood?
12 MR IRVING:     What connection has that with me?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is a Holocaust denial book and you have an
14association with Anthony Hancock.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So a printer prints a Holocaust denial book and this is
16somehow linked immediately to me. Is this the way you
17have built up your evidence?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. You have an association with Mr Hancock.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And, because his father -- is that not what the Nazis
20called sippenhaft, if somebody in a family has done
21something wrong, you arrest the whole family?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me read the passage from my report: "Anthony Hancock
23junior Anthony Hancock hired the venue and distributed
24tickets for a 'revisionist' seminar in London on 4th July
251992 in which Irving spoke. Hancock's Historical Review
26Press printed Irving's newsletter Focal Point in the early

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