Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 136 - 140 of 215

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    He is somebody who has written two books now, alleging
 1that the Americans murdered six million Germans after the
 2end of the Second World War, that they deliberately killed
 3at least a million German prisoners of war at the end of
 4the Second World War.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Has that book been taken very seriously?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I do not regard him as a serious author and, of
 7course, as I say, his paranoid style of writing based on
 8the manipulation of statistics which historians have
 9easily shown to be totally false, bears a striking
10resemblance to the pseudo history of the Holocaust
11deniers, which is no doubt why he has been welcome at
12their meetings and indeed why you quote his work in your
13book on Nuremberg.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is a Holocaust denier?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not know whether he is or not, but certainly I think
16his ludicrous ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Has he not expressed strong opinions against Holocaust
18denial, both in the Canadian press and elsewhere?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you can show me documentary evidence of that, I will be
20prepared to accept it, but not otherwise.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are two other speakers at the IHR, the Japanese general
22Hidi Omiki, and the CIA senior official, Victor Marcheti,
23are they Holocaust deniers?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What I would need to do to, as it were, make a judgment on
25the full import of what you are saying there is to see
26what they actually said at the meetings of the Institute,

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 1provide documentation of what they said, and if what they
 2said has nothing to do with Holocaust denial, then, either
 3directly or indirectly, I will accept your point. But
 4I do think that Mr Back's thesis of course, I directly
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not like them, this is plain, right? You do not
 7like the thesis of Mr Jim Back?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not that I do not like them, Mr Irving, it is that
 9they are completely phoney.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you an expert on those matters?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Why do you think that he has alleged that the Americans
12killed 6 million Germans after the end of the Second World
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have his books been published by the world's leading
15publishers, including St Martin's Press?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, can we please move on? This is a
17man who says that the Americans killed 6 million Germans.
18One's eyebrows rise slightly, do they not?
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am not going to go down that particular
20cul-de-sac and, if I had done, your Lordship would have
21reprimanded me.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You were suggesting that the man was a
23respectable historian. I do not know whether he is or he
24is not, but I really think we must get on, please.
25 MR IRVING:     I am in a dilemma there because, if I had taken up
26that particular red herring, then I would have been

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 1rightly reprimanded by your Lordship. I have just moved
 2on. Is it right to say therefore that the IHR has a
 3reputation for inviting revisionist speakers with
 4unorthodox views to speak there?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In its own self understanding of revisionism, yes,
 6revisionism in which Holocaust denial is the central
 7element. That not to say of course that every speaker
 8there gives a speech which is purely centrally or wholly
 9concerned with Holocaust denial, but that is what they are
10about and that is why they invite people like Mr Back.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it is correct to say that sometimes Holocaust deniers
12speak there, but the fact that people speak there does not
13make them Holocaust deniers?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think, if anyone accepts an invitation to the Institute
15of Historical Review, it is quite clear to everybody that
16it is a Holocaust denial Institute with no academic
17respectability or credentials whatsoever and that
18therefore, by appearing there, you are approving, at least
19in part, of what they do.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, if somebody comes and speaks at Caius College, they
21would be automatically accepting the tenets of all the
22other professors who have spoken there? Is that the kind
23of position ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, please.
25 MR IRVING:     It is such an absurd kind of argument to make that
26I thought I would highlight its absurdity.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not know if that is a question, my Lord.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it is.
 3 MR IRVING:     Page 191, paragraph 4, you state that I published
 4on my website a very lengthy tract by somebody with the
 5pseudonym of Samuel Crowell.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very brief answer: Are you familiar with the difference
 8between publishing something on a website and just putting
 9a link on a website to somebody else's documents somewhere
10else in the world, in other words what is called an
11outlink or hyperlink?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I think I am.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it be the same as being editor of a magazine under
14the footnote of the magazine saying, readers might be
15interested in this document by Mr Crowell which they will
16find in that library somewhere over there? Would that be
17a comparison?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is a similarity, but of course the link is close in
19the case of the Internet because you do actually have to
20trail across to another library or go out to a bookshop to
21buy the book. You can just flick a switch and it is
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     But to suggest, as you have, that Irving has published on
24his website this very lengthy tract is in other words
25inaccurate? I have posted a link to a document by another
26author somewhere else.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I understood that it was on the Auschwitz section of your
 2website. My recollection is that that is where I read
 3it. It is on the Auschwitz index, is it not.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you had clicked on it, would you have been surprised to
 5find that you were no longer in my website but somewhere
 6in California?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have to say I did not realize that, if that is the case.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you are referring to the Auschwitz index, will you
 9agree that that same page also has hyperlinks to
10organizations like Niscore and Holocaust History Project?
11Do you know those web sites?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You would have to provide me with a print out so that
13I could examine it.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I say to you that on those pages you will find a
15hyperlink to Niscore, do you know what Niscore is?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I know what Niscore is, Mr Irving .
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is Niscore? Is it a body friendly to me?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is not. I accepted this on Thursday, Mr Irving.
19On your website you do include a reference to, or the
20ability, you say, to make people alert to the fact that
21there is a Niscore website which gives a contrary view to
22your own. Indeed, you print the whole text of my own
23report. That is up on your website. The daily
24transcripts of this trial are on your website. But you
25also use your website to disseminate Holocaust denial
26material, such as that by Samuel Crowell.

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