Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 215

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    Let us move on. We are now moving on. You quite
 1Journal. Are you suggesting that I have in any way
 2engineered these articles about me in the Journal of the
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In the fourth and sixth issues of Volume 13. That shows,
 5I think, that the Journal thought highly of you.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     I now start six lines from the bottom: "The first issue
 7of volume 13 included one article by Irving and two others
 8about him. The next issue had another article by Irving,
 9and he also printed two more articles in the first volume
10of" -- have you any evidence that I have on any occasion
11whatsoever written an article for the Journal?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, we have been through this before, Mr Irving, last
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and what was the answer?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The answer was that these are edited versions of the
16speeches you gave at your frequent visits to the
17Institute's conferences, and that I presume that these
18versions appeared as articles in the Journal with your
19approval and permission since, presumably, they are
20copyright, its copyrights assigned to you.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you accept that ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Are you suggesting that they appeared without your
23knowledge and without your permission?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is not the question and you cannot ask me questions,
25Professor. Are you suggesting that there is no
26distinction between an article written by an author for a

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 1journal and a paper written by that journal?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I have to say, my Lord, I do find this very
 3trying. Time is passing. I do worry about creatures like
 4Reichskristallnacht and Schlegelberger and all those
 5people down the line. We know from Mr Irving's own
 6answers in cross-examination that the Journal reprints
 7versions of his speeches which he has edited and approved
 8in advance of publication.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I remember.
10 MR RAMPTON:     It is on the record.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am anxious not to interrupt too much, but
12Mr Rampton is plainly right.
13 MR RAMPTON:     I know that, but I have a duty to the court and
14also to my clients.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not a criticism of you. I think you
16have been very restrained, but it is very difficult,
17Mr Irving. I really cannot tell you often enough that
18I want to get on to the meat of Professor Evans' report.
19 MR IRVING:     I have assured you how far we shall certainly get.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have had two full days' of
21cross-examination and we still have not got there. We
22have not even begun.
23 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am not responsible for the fact that the
24instructing solicitors did not instruct the witness to
25write his report in a way which would be useful to this

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, well ----
 2 MR IRVING:     I can only cross-examine on the basis of the report
 3which is before your Lordship and myself.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When the Judge tells you time and again that
 5he is not deriving any assistance from the
 6cross-examination on these earlier passages in the report,
 7surely, Mr Irving, it makes sense to get on to what the
 8court wants to hear about.
 9 MR IRVING:     But if your Lordship were to say to me, "Mr Irving,
10tear up pages 1 to 250 of the report", I would willingly
11have done so.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right, on to the next point.
13 MR IRVING:     No one would have done so more willingly than I. I
14have had to devote a lot of very scarce resources to going
15through these in great deal on the basis that they are
16before your Lordship also and I cannot allow these ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let me tell you this, Mr Irving, it is the
18last case I would want to do this, but what sometimes has
19to happen is that one says after a certain amount of
20cross-examination, "Right, this is going too slowly. You
21have X amount of time to complete the cross-examination".
22I would be very loath to do that in a case of this kind,
23but I can see that coming if we do not move to what really
24is at the heart of Professor Evans's expert report.
25 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I said very clearly yesterday that I was
26going to ask for two and a half more days. I shall

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 1certainly keep to that timetable which I think allows
 2possibly sufficient time for re-examination in the
 3remaining half day.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am really interested to hear Professor
 5Evans being cross-examined by you on these points that
 6makes on the historiography.
 7 MR IRVING:     But he has also made these points on guilt by
 8association, my Lord, and they stand unless I challenge
 9them. He says that Judge Steglisch was once introduced to
10me at a hotel breakfast, this kind of thing.
11     Page 184, witness. We are still back on 184.
12You complain about the fact that the IHR sells my books or
13advertises my books.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am not complaining at all. Who am I to complain
15about that?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, you say that they advertise my books -- the second
17and third lines, the book is obtainable through the
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Look. What he is saying in the whole of that
21paragraph is that you are closely associated with the
22IHR. If you want to put to him that you are no more than
23the occasional speaker at the odd conference, put that and
24then move on. If that is your case? I do not know what
25your case is.
26 MR IRVING:     It certainly is. Professor Evans, are you familiar

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 1with any of the other speakers there? Would you agree
 2that John Toland is an occasional speaker at the IHR
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think he has spoken once, to my recollection.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is John Toland a Pulitzer prize winning author on the
 6American literary scene?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Plenty of people have won Pulitzer prizes. It does not
 8mean to say that I think that their views are admirable
 9simply because of that.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is he a Holocaust denier or right-wing extremist, to your
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That I do not know presently. I know him only as the
13author of a biography of Hitler.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the fact that the Canadian liberal
15journalist and author Jim Back has spoken at the IHR?
16James Back?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes or no?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I am.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the fact that the Japanese
21general Hidi Omiki has spoken at the IHR?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me just mention James Back because he is an author who
23has claimed that many, and I go into this on page 186 of
24my report.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is a Holocaust denier?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     

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