Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 215

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you do not consider this is a bona fide Institute at
 2all, do you?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is just comprised of people who have no qualifications
 5and have the wrong views or views you disapprove of?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not say that.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But what you do make plain at the beginning of this
 8paragraph 15, and I quote: "Irving has denied that he is
 9affiliated to the Institute in any formal capacity, and
10this is strictly speaking true"?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I go on to say: "He is a member neither of its
12Board nor of the Editorial Advisory Board of its
13Journal". I think it is only fair of me to point that
14out.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, do you accept that this is true?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     That I have no affiliation whatsoever with that body.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No formal affiliation.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, what other kind of affiliation can there be?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     An informal affiliation.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     What do you mean by informal affiliation? That they send
22unsolicited materials to me? Is that an informal
23affiliation?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I go on to describe that in the rest of the
25paragraph.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     "He has been a frequent visitor", line 3 on page 184, is

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 1that correct?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, you have been a frequent visitor.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     "... frequent visitor to the annual conferences organized
 4by the Institute of Historical Review"?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes. You spoke.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you estimate how many times in the last 17 years I
 7have visited these conferences to justify the word
 8"frequent"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Why have you chosen 17 as a number?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because it is 17 years.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Since what?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Between -- over the period you are talking about.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Oh, I see. Well, it is -- you are ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many is frequent? 20, 30, 50?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Your contacts of -- your speech of speeches ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     They are annual, so it could not be more than
1717, could it?
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I can cut to the bottom line, as we say,
19and say the answer is five. Would you say that the
20correct number of occasions on which I have attended their
21annual conference in whatever capacity is five?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, speaking. I say here: "To date you have spoken to
23audiences at the Institute five times. You spoke at the
24ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth conferences in
25succession". So at that time, therefore, that is in the
261990s, I think, am I right, you are ----

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 1 MR IRVING:     It is a span of 17 years.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, at that time, that is to say, in the immediate run up
 3to Professor Lipstadt' book, you were there on an annual,
 4virtually an annual basis. There were also many articles
 5about you in the Journal that the Institute prints and
 6many articles by you.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am picking on this word "frequent" visitor to the annual
 8conferences and it turns out to be five times in 17 years?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You spoke at the ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth
10conferences in succession and at one other conference.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     That sounds like five to me.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, that is four and one other conference, and at that
13time you were a frequent visitor. I do not say you are a
14frequent -- I do not say, "He is a frequent visitor at the
15annual conferences", I am saying you have been and I
16then go on to say precisely which conferences you spoke
17at.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Five times in 17 years does not -- but I do not want to
19keep on hammering this point in otherwise I shall earn a
20rebuke.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Four times in four years, Mr Irving, that is frequent.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Five times in 17 years is not a frequent visitor, by any
23reckoning, is it?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Four times in four years is a very frequent visitor,
25Mr Irving.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     What makes you think that the ninth, tenth, eleventh and

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 1twelfth conferences were on an annual basis?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Ah, you may be -- you may have me there. Were they not?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. But you are assuming that they are?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I thought they were, I must say.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the word "frequent", in other words, is wrong?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Are you telling me they are not then? Would you like to
 7tell me the dates of those conferences?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     They are either every two or three years.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     So in that case, 17 years, there would be eight, seven or,
10let me see, eight or nine conferences, so that five visits
11is actually rather frequent; it is the majority of them,
12is it not?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that five times in 17 years does not qualify
14for the word "frequent visitor"?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the point he is making is that if
16they are every two or three years, you have been to every
17single one. I mean, that is the result of what you ----
18 MR IRVING:     I must have learned English at a different school.
19The word "frequent" to me does not imply five times in 17
20years, my Lord.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But, Mr Irving, if you are saying that the conferences
22took place every two or three years, then in 17 years
23there can only have been six or seven, or at most eight
24conferences, and you admitted, you said that you were at
25five of those, that is almost every one; and that
26certainly justifies saying that you are a frequent

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 1visitor. In fact, if that is the case that the
 2conferences were not, as I had thought, annual, then
 3I would have said an "almost 100 per cent attender", not
 4"frequent visitor".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not a frequent visitor?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Almost 100 per cent attender if they were at greater
 7intervals than one year each. As it is, I say, "He has
 8been a frequent visitor to the annual conferences". Then
 9I say, I give when these conferences were, the ninth,
10tenth, eleventh and twelfth conferences in succession.
11That is frequent to me, that period. I am unclear now as
12to whether you think the conferences were annual or not.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     The conferences were held (and I can tell you this) I am
14sure on the basis of once every two years?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     And sometimes less frequently.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In that case, in the last 17 years we are talking about
18majority of the conferences and I think that justifies
19saying that you were a frequent visitor at them.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Five times is not a frequent visitor and I am sorry to
21have to keep on ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Five times is a frequent visitor when there have only ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is becoming utterly futile ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- been eight conferences.
25 MR IRVING:     Let us move on. We are now moving on. You quite
26rightly say there have been articles about me in the

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