Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 215

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    There is a sort of continuum. I think that Nazi
 1extermination of European Jews was a policy that only
 2gradually became formulated in the course of 1941 and the
 3early months of 1942.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you turn now to page 173? We will just look very
 5briefly at your four central tenets of Holocaust denial.
 6You think that to be Holocaust denier, you have got to be
 7somebody who says that the number of Jews killed by the
 8Nazis was far less than 6 million? Is that one criterion?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not quite clear about the criteria. Does one have to
11be a member of each of these four groups or any one of
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we have had this before and the
14answer is, no, you do not have to be a subscriber to all
15four views. You can, as it were, adopt one or two of them
16and you can hold them in a full-blooded way or less so.
17 MR IRVING:     So any one would qualify you to be the title.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, you have dealt with this
19before in your evidence?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have dealt with this before -- it is on the transcript,
21my Lord.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is on the transcript.
23 MR IRVING:     Yes, but if his Lordship is right, then his
24Lordship is, effectively, saying that anybody who says the
25figure is not 6 million but 5 million or 4 million is a
26Holocaust denier.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not saying anything. I am saying what
 2Professor Evans said yesterday.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If I may say, sir, what I argued was that you really need
 4all four.
 5 MR IRVING:     All four?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is a package, but that, of course, it is a kind of
 7fluid, and I said earlier on that there are some people
 8who will deny one, deny the other, partially deny one
 9proposition, partially affirm another. It is not
10something that ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     It sounds to me as though the package is adjusted
12according to whom you are trying to sling it around the
13neck of?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, that is not the case.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, you are just saying that one has to be a member of
16all four except in some circumstances when it can be less
17which seems to be ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, no. What I am saying is that it is a matter of
19degree and so on, but I would describe Holocaust --
20I would have no doubt that someone who subscribed to all
21four propositions was a Holocaust denier in the sense that
22is generally understood.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And, indeed, appears in Professor Lipstadt's book.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     So we rapidly wrap up that passage, the second criterion
26is that the person says that gas chambers were not used?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     If somebody says they were used in some places but not in
 3other places, does he qualify or ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, no, not if he or she is accurate. I mean, clearly,
 5gas chambers were used in some ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     If somebody says that they were used in a small scale but
 7not on a large scale?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am trying to give you an extremely brief summary of a
 9rather lengthy section of where I go into these in a great
10deal more detail.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is what is at the root of the case, you appreciate
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course I do. That is why I have written this section.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is quite a brief section and I am trying to
15establish ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I mean the whole section on Holocaust denial, not this
17very brief conclusion.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     But if somebody denies that the gas chambers were used on
19a mass factories of death basis, but they were used on a
20smaller scale, wherever, would he be a Holocaust denier?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well I have explained earlier on that this very, that what
22I mean is that gas chambers were not used for the
23systematic extermination of large numbers of Jews, that is
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     The third criterion is that there was no systematic
26killing of Europe's Jews, in other words ----

.   P-123

 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right, that it was not systematic, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think we all understand what we mean by that.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     If it was haphazard, if somebody accepts it is haphazard
 5but denies it was a government action, State action?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then he qualifies, he is a Holocaust denier. Then the
 8fourth one is the propaganda story, the fact ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- that the Allies invented this story as a propaganda?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But as you are having difficulty even now in
13determining to the satisfaction of myself, certainly, and
14a large number of people in this court, perhaps, exactly
15what is meant by these four criteria, it is a bit of a
16vague concept, is it not, but it is like an elephant, you
17know what it is, you cannot necessarily describe it, is
18that right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not having difficulties, Mr Irving.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am having difficulty getting a clear definition
21from you on any one of these four.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I have been told what the
23definition is. It is for me to decide whether it is a
24satisfactory definition, but I am in absolutely no doubt
25what the definition is. It could not be more clearly set

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 1 MR IRVING:     You accept that one has to be a member of all four
 2or just one of them?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I think I said a few minutes ago when
 4reciting what Professor Evans has said, no, he does not
 5think you have to subscribe to all four view points.
 6 MR IRVING:     But am I right in believing that it is your
 7Lordship who decides rather than the witness's
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course it is.
10 MR IRVING:     Yes. Can we now proceed to "Connections with
11Holocaust deniers" which is section 3.5, page 174? The
12burden of the charge you are trying to make here, am
13I right, is guilt by association? "Tell me who your
14friends are and I will tell you who you are", I think is a
15Spanish expression, is that correct?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is not, no.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     You list here a number of names of people who you identify
18as Holocaust deniers and you say because these people have
19been seen in the same room as me, effectively, this makes
20me one too. Is that putting it too simply?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Right. Can we leap straight ahead to page 183 because
23this, I think, justifies me in doing the leap? Beginning
24at paragraph 15, we are talking about the institute of
25Historical Review, is that right?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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