Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 215

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    If you say you never said that the Jews had
 1it coming to them, or they deserved what happened to them,
 2put that to the witness.
 3 MR IRVING:     I am trying to get the witness to state
 4specifically whether he sees a distinction between
 5Dr Goebbels saying in his diaries, as quoted by me in my
 6book, that the Jews had it coming to them on the one hand,
 7and David Irving applauded what happened, the Holocaust,
 8on the other.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a false antithesis because applauding
10does not come into it. No-one is suggesting you applauded
12 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much. If the witness would say the
13same ----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Will you listen, please. What is being
15suggested is that you have on occasions said that the Jews
16brought it on themselves. Now, if you say that is not
17true, put it to the witness, and he will probably go to
18paragraph 56 of his report in his answer.
19 MR IRVING:     Can we take this in two stages? Witness, you have
20heard his Lordship say nobody says that David Irving
21applauded the Holocaust. Does that include you?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have already pointed out several times I do not say in
23these paragraphs that you applaud the Holocaust however
24you conceive of it.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     What you do say is that I state in my Goebbels biography
26that Goebbels believed that the Jews had it coming to

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 1them. That is the first question. Goebbels believed they
 2had it coming to them?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that in the following page to which Mr Rampton has
 5drawn attention I go on then to examine that piece by
 6piece and say to what degree was Goebbels right. Is that
 7effectively right?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     For example -- I do not want to go over old ground --
10the Baltic States and so on?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us leave the Baltic States out of it. What you say is
12that "maybe the chairman of St Martin's Press was right
13when he said this book suggests they (the Jews) had it
14coming to them, maybe I did not make it plain enough and
15maybe I did not put enough distance between myself and Dr
16Goebbels, or maybe I did not put in all the
17arguments, counter arguments, I should have done to be
18politically correct". One notes that sneering phrase at
19the end there.
20     Then you go on in paragraph 55 to recount what
21you said in a meeting. "I said", quoting you, "to a
22leader of the Jewish community in Freeport Louisiana, you
23are disliked, you people. You have been disliked for three
24thousand years. You have been disliked so much that you
25have been hounded from country to country, from pogrom to
26purge, from purge back to pogrom, and yet you never asked

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 1yourselves what is it that the rest of humanity does not
 2like about the Jewish people, to such an extent" ----
 3 MR IRVING:     Witness, we have had all this so many times My
 4Lord, if he is going to read these parts, he must read the
 5other parts as well.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "that they repeatedly put us through the grinder?" --
 7I know you do not want this read out, Mr Irving, but I am
 8going to read it out.
 9 MR IRVING:     I want all of it read out and not just your
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, will you be quiet. The witness is
12trying to answer your question.
13 MR IRVING:     He is not. He is just wasting time.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "And he went berserk", you go on, this Jewish man. "He
15said: 'Are you trying to say that we are responsible for
16Auschwitz? Ourselves?' And I said, 'Well, the short
17answer is yes'".
18 MR IRVING:     "The short answer is yes". And?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "The short answer I have to say is yes. If you had
20behaved differently over the intervening 3,000 years" ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have left out bits, have you not, the whole way
22through that? You left out four passages from that?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, we have been through all this
24before. We are going to resume at five past two and
25I hope you will move on.
26 MR IRVING:     With respect, my Lord, he should not have been

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 1allowed to read out the truncated version again.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Five past two.
 3 (The Luncheon Adjournment)
 4(2.05 p.m.)
 5Professor Evans, recalled.
 6Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving?
 8 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I anticipate that in the rest of this
 9afternoon we will get through as far as the
10Reichskristallnacht and well into it, in fact.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good.
12 MR IRVING:     That is certainly my aim. In other words, we will
13definitely manage that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good.
15MR IRVING (To the witness): Professor Evans, on page 171 you
16quoted this passage. I am not going back to that
17passage. I have one problem with that quotation you gave
18us in paragraph 56 -- you provided no source for it?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is oversight on my part. The source is given on
20page 7 of my answers to your written questions, your
21questions of 2nd January. That is video tape 225,
22interview in Key West, Florida, 1996, just 33 minutes into
23the interview.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Tape 225?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have we got that?
26 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, which one is it? I am lost.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tape 225, Key West 1996. Do you want us to
 2look at it, Mr Irving, for context or not?
 3 MR IRVING:     I will not delay the court. Obviously, I wanted to
 4see what the context was of that and see if there had been
 5any omissions. Professor, when you make omissions from a
 6document, do you always indicate it by ellipses?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, of course. You will find one there, in fact.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it would be very sloppy not to indicate the omission,
 9would it not?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It would be a mistake, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     And if I were to do that, of course, you would rightly
12criticise me?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That would depend on the circumstances. It could either
14be just an oversight, a misprint, or it could be
15deliberate falsification, depending on the circumstances.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am anxious to try to shorten your answers. I know that
17the Welsh are famous for their loquacity, and I hope that
18this will not be taken by Mr Rampton as yet another
19example of my racist predilections when I say that, but
20your answers sometimes do tend to run overboard and his
21Lordship has given me little assistance in this matter.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, well, I think that is the sort of thing
23you have to leave to me, Mr Irving.
24 MR IRVING:     I am an unskilled cross-examiner, as your Lordship
25is aware, and if you feel that the witness is overrunning
26his time, I would be grateful if your Lordship would be

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