Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 215

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    The reference is to this violent demonstration that
 1began in one of my speeches in Freeport in Louisiana?
 2Have we had that? The fact that the local community came
 3along and violently disrupted a lecture that I was
 4speaking at, and that that is what has been left out of
 5the middle of this speech, in the middle of this
 6anecdote? I am sure that we have not had that, my Lord.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I have lost you temporarily. You
 8are talking about Louisiana but this is Florida.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is an ellipse in the indented quotation.
10 MR IRVING:     There are four ellipses on that page, each of which
11was serious material and should not have been left out
12because it explains the remarks that follow.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we deal with that as a matter of
14submission? We have been through this speech in
15considerable detail already. I have it reasonably well in
16mind and I do not think it is going to be sensible to
17spend ten minutes filling in the ellipses.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have looked at this speech again, my Lord, and the only
19passage that I considered should be reinstated is listed
20in my letter of 10th January 2000 with amendments to the
21report. So there is a short passage there. But otherwise
22I come back to the fact that this is a very long quotation
23already, and I think it gives a correct impression of your
25 MR IRVING:     In that case, let us spend the remaining few
26minutes before the adjournment examining precisely what

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 1you consider my views to be, unless his Lordship
 4 MR IRVING:     "Irving conceded that he was in basic agreement
 5with Goebbels in his belief that the Jews had it coming to
 6them". That is, of course, a repugnant statement and you
 7are prepared now to defend that, are you, Professor?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you are saying that Irving said that the Jews deserved
10the Holocaust?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right. That is to say, of course, on your
12interpretation of the Holocaust.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     They deserved the gas chambers, the barbed wire, the
14millions of deaths, that they had it coming to them, and
15that this my own personal view? This is your view as an
16expert witness in this case?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I would not say the gas chambers, since you denied
18that in 1996 when you made this statement, but for the
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Ignoring the cheap laughs.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, I have to make that point.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is a repugnant allegation for you to make and you
23should not be playing to the gallery with cheap laughs.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think Professor Evans is playing to
25the gallery. I really do not.
26 MR IRVING:     If he says I do not mean the gas chambers because

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 1of course----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is making the serious point that, when
 3you, as he argues, say that the Jews had it coming to
 4them, you cannot have been meaning that they had the gas
 5chambers coming to them, because at that stage you were
 6saying that there were not any gas chambers. That is the
 7point. It is a serious point.
 8 MR IRVING:     My Lord, this is characteristic of this witness's
 9methods, that, when he come up against an awkward
10question, he attempts to push this particular express
11train on to a siding, and I am not going down the gas
12chamber siding, I am not going down that particular road.
13I am going to nail this witness down on his submission to
14this court that I applaud the Holocaust, which is what
15that sentence boils down to.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. That is not quite what he is saying.
17What he is saying is that you had whatever you meant by
18the Holocaust, that the Jews had whatever you meant by the
19Holocaust coming to them. That is what he is saying you
21 MR IRVING:     With respect my Lord, is that not precisely what
22I just said?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Carry on with your questions and we will see
24where you get.
25 MR IRVING:     "Irving said that he agreed with Goebbels that they
26had it coming to them".

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you not see the distinction between an author writing
 3in a book saying Goebbels said that the Jews had it coming
 4to them and he believed they had it coming to them, and
 5the author himself believing the Jews had it coming to
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I just quoted a lengthy passage where you try and wriggle
 8out of the suggestion made by the chairman of St Martin's
 9Press that the book suggests that the Jews had it coming
10to them. The man who was going to publish your book and
11had read it took that message from the book and you say
12that maybe you did not make it plain enough, did not put
13enough distance between yourself and Goebbels. I then go
14on to quote your speech in Tampa, Florida on 6th October
151995, where you say precisely the same thing.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Perhaps one could turn over the page for
17completeness because this theme is completed in paragraph
1856, and I do resist a lack of context.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In 1991 you said "they (and you mean the Jews) dragged us
20into two world wars and now, for equally mysterious
21reasons, they are trying to drag us into the Balkans".
22 MR IRVING:     Can we narrow down----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is another lengthy quote there, why does it always
24happen to the Jews, you ask.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we therefore narrow down what your allegation against
26the author of this book is? Are you alleging that he

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 1applauded what happened to the Jews?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What I am saying here is ----
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     It should be easy to answer. Does he applaud it or does
 4he not, in your view?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let us read the text of my report, Mr Irving.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you just answer a simple question?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Fundamentally, however, as Irving conceded, he was in
 8basic agreement with Goebbels in his belief that 'they had
 9it coming to them'".
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you now answer my question?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what I am saying.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you answer my question?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The word "applause" and "applauded" does not occur there.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just so that everybody in this courtroom can be plain what
15you are suggesting, are you suggesting that I, David
16Irving, applauded what happened to the Jews or not?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am saying that you are saying that they deserved what
18they got.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That answer has been given now three or four
20times, Mr Irving.
21 MR IRVING:     There is a certain amount of wriggling going on
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you say you never said anything of the
24kind, put that to the witness.
25 MR IRVING:     If what?

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