Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 215

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    My Lord, will you instruct the witness to answer questions
 1put to him?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am despairing. Would you let the witness
 3-- and then you can ask the question. Read it out
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "In April 1998 he spoke of American Jews 'moving into the
 6same positions of predominance and influence (media,
 7banking, business, entertainment, and the more
 8lucrative professions like law, medical and dentistry)
 9that they held in Weimar Germany, which gave rise to the
10hatreds and the resulting pogroms; and that this being so,
11twenty or thirty more years might see in the USA the same
12dire consequences as happened in Nazi Germany". Extract
13from Irving's personal diary April 13, 14th 1998, on
14Irving's Focal Point website. The answer to your question
15is yes, I have had access to your personal diaries.
16 MR IRVING:     Do you have any reason to suspect this is not a
17genuine diary, what is on my website?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think it is as genuine as the Anne Frank diary, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will repeat the question. Do you have any reason to
20believe that this is not a genuine diary extract?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The answer is no.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The answer is no. I answered it.
23 MR IRVING:     Will you go to page 88 of the bundle which is F?
24My Lord, the purpose of this is purely to point out, not
25words left out but surrounding material left out.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, context.

.   P-101

 1 MR IRVING:     Is this the diary as reproduced on my website?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It looks like it, yes. I have downloaded on 15th February
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it is a description of a lecture that I delivered to
 5students at the University of Washington State in Pulman
 6in 1998?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, seems to be.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     The questions are the best part as usual, a German girl
 9student a quiet well spoken 20 year old, the Federal
10Republic's equivalent of a Rhodes scholar. I carry on now
11to the next paragraph. The paragraph begins: Several
12coloured students are there mostly training to become
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This has nothing to do with the context of
15what Professor Evans quoted. It is completely irrelevant.
16 MR IRVING:     They are bright and friendly.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have read it all. The context? This adds
18nothing and subtracts nothing. What is the point,
19Mr Irving? Why are we looking at this?
20 MR IRVING:     I am putting this in connection with the allegation
21of racism.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What, about several coloured students being
24 MR IRVING:     "Several coloured students were there, mostly
25training to become teachers. They are bright and

.   P-102

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see. I thought we were looking at this for
 2context of what Professor Evans quoted.
 3 MR IRVING:     I used the eye witness testimony of General Walter
 4Bruns, which your Lordship is familiar with. I read out
 5the whole of that document to these students, which goes
 6to the Holocaust denial issue. This is a typical speech
 7by me to university students who are a bright and friendly
 8lot, and we have had just this one passage taken out of
 9context when a Jewish Professor from the floor asked
10questions and I put to him my take on the present
11situation in the United States.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I do think that that is completely irrelevant. If
13you want a little bit more, the context is: "One
14questioner addresses the issue that I had raised in
15discussing the Daniel Goldhagen thesis, that if I were a
16Jew I would want to see an answer to the vital question
17why the Jews are so hated within only a few years of their
18arrival in each host country. He points out that the Jews
19have now been in the United States in strength for 50
20years yet they are not hated. I reply that, on the
21contrary, my own perception is that they are moving into
22the same positions", and so on and so forth. That is the
24 MR IRVING:     That is the context, my Lord, and I think that that
25substantially softens what might be taken to be the sting
26of that passage left, as it is, in that rather bald and

.   P-103

 1exposed position in the paragraph as quoted in the expert
 2report. I am being asked by a Jewish Professor for my
 3take on the present situation and I am telling him in this
 4semi-academic atmosphere the worries that I would have if
 5I were Jewish.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, to my mind, it does not actually soften it at all.
 7There is no indication here that it is a Jewish Professor,
 8incidentally. What he says is, he quotes you, saying
 9that, if you were a Jew, you would want to see am answer
10to the vital question why are the Jews so hated within
11only a few years of their arrival in each host country. I
12think I have done you a favour by leaving that out.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 170, this is a sentence beginning with the
14word "fundamentally". Here you have allowed yourself to
15say, "Fundamentally, however, as Irving conceded", there
16is that word again "conceded", "he was in basic agreement
17with Goebbels in his belief that 'they had it coming to
18them'". Who do you mean by "they"?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The Jews.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Jews. So you are saying once again that I am
21applauding the Holocaust effectively?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think I use the word "applaud". There again, let
23me just read the surrounding context which you are so keen
24on reading out in your own statements, so I hope I am
25allowed to do the same with mine.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In 1996 you recount the view of the publisher who
 2eventually refused to publish the American edition of your
 3book on Goebbels and you said: Maybe ... the chairman of
 4St Martin's Press was right when he said: 'This book
 5suggests they (the Jews) had it coming to them'. But if
 6he is right, let me say in advance in my self-defence, it
 7is not David Irving who says that, it is David Irving
 8reporting Dr Goebbels who says that. Maybe I did not make
 9it plain enough, or maybe I did not put enough distance
10between myself and Dr Goebbels or maybe I did not put in
11all the counter-arguments I should have done to be
12politically correct". "Fundamentally, however, as Irving
13conceded", I go on, "he was in basic agreement with
14Goebbels in his belief that 'they had it coming to them'."
15"For, Irving told an audience in Tampa, Florida, on 6th
16October 1995:", and then I have a very lengthy quote which
17I think has already been referred to in the trial, so I
18will not read it out.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, it has. The short answer is that the
20Jews did have it coming to them, but there is a longer
21answer. I think that is a fair summary.
22 MR IRVING:     My Lord, what he has left out from this quotation
23of course -- we have not actually looked at it in detail.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have looked at the Tampa, Florida one in
26 MR IRVING:     

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