Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 96 - 100 of 217

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    Mr Irving, may I just try to help you because
 1than that, and say it is my view that it is in every way
 2-- this is not a criticism of Professor Evans personally
 3-- unfortunate that they are there because they could be
 4taken to indicate a preconception about the validity of
 5the criticisms.
 6 MR IRVING:     I think they are grossly prejudicial, my Lord.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does that satisfy you that you really are not
 8going to lose by not spending long, in fact I hope no
 9longer, on these other historians' views?
10 MR IRVING:     But you do accept my belief that they are grossly
11prejudicial ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I chose my words with a certain amount of
13care. They are capable of giving rise to the impression
14that there was a preconception that there were justified
15criticisms about you. In the end, I think Professor Evans
16accepts that he has justify his own criticisms in his own
17terms and as a matter of his own beliefs.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
19 MR IRVING:     Can you turn to page 63? We are now moving on to
20publishers. I will not deal with any more historians
21then. 2.5.38, can you accept that, in fact, my main
22publishers in that era were Macmillan and Hutchinsons and
23not Penguin? They were my major hard back publishers.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I mention publishing house -- your books are
25published by a variety of mainstream publishing houses,
26including Penguin Books, Macmillan, Hodder and Stoughton,

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 1HarperCollins, Grafton Books and Corgi paperbacks.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     But they ceased publishing me, did they not?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that is correct, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you implying they ceased publishing me because of
 5inherent faults in my works or because of some other
 6reason? Do you have any knowledge one way or the other?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am trying to see where I describe this. You have no
 8longer been published -- since the late 1980s you have no
 9longer been published by major houses, but instead you
10have brought out your books under your own imprint.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are aware, in fact, that Macmillans continued
12publishing me until 1992?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you suggesting that Macmillans and Hutchinsons and the
15other major hard back publishers ceased publishing because
16they found faults in my work?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I mean, one has to kind of guess really, I think, because
18I have not had access to any documentation which they
19have, but, as you know, the normal process among
20publishers of non-fiction is to have manuscripts and books
21submitted to referees for comment, and it may well be that
22that is the reason why they did not. I mean, your views
23have changed on a number of matters.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you any reason to ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Or did change in a number of matters, particularly on the
26Holocaust in the late 1980s, and I think it is not

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 1unreasonable to see a connection between the change of
 2your views that took place in 1988 when I think you became
 3a Holocaust denier, and the fact that within four years
 4major publishing houses were not publishing your work any
 5longer.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it in your knowledge of the publishing industry normal
 7for publishers to come under outside pressure?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It depends what you mean by "outside pressure". As
 9I said, publishers commonly send manuscripts and books out
10to a variety of referees who report on them. In a sense,
11if they get adverse reports from those referees, I guess
12that is outside, that is some kind of outside
13contribution.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have no knowledge of Macmillan ever having sent any of
15my recent and final books out to outside referees, do you?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not know whether you have submitted your manuscripts
17to them or not. This is only a very brief reference here
18in a few lines.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever heard of a major publisher ordering the
20total destruction of an author's works under the effect of
21outside pressure?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Under the threat of legal action.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, not under threat of legal action?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is outside pressure.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Under threat of political pressure?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not to my knowledge, no. That is not to say it has not

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 1happened.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 63 you refer to the fact that reputable historians
 3do not get themselves arrested and deported and all the
 4rest of it. Is that correct?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I think so. Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is Salman Rushdie a reputable historian?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, he is a novelist.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is he reputable?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is a novelist.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Blamed for his own misfortune?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is a novelist. I am not talking about novelists. I am
12talking about reputable historians.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it reputable to abandon your principles in order not to
14get arrested and deported?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I find that a difficult question. I mean, that is so
16hypothetical. I am not quite sure who you are referring
17to.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, you used the word "reputable".
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     All I am saying here ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, this is getting you nowhere.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     All I am saying here is that, as I say: "It is impossible
22to think of any historian of any standing at all who has
23been subjected to so many adverse legal judgments", and
24also who has ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware there has been only one adverse ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- experienced so many difficulties.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- legal judgment against me, and that this was in
 2Germany in January 1993? Are you aware what that judgment
 3was for?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I thought you had an adverse legal judgment against you in
 5the case of your book on the Convoy of PQ17, I think it
 6was called.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, we are certainly not going to go into
 8that.
 9 MR IRVING:     Are you aware of what the adverse legal judgment in
10Germany in January 1993 was for?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you tell the court?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think it was for Holocaust denial, was it not?
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, it was not for Holocaust denial. It was for saying
15that the gas chamber at Auschwitz (i) which is shown to
16the tourists is a fake.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Without seeing a copy of the judgment, I could not confirm
18that. That is not my understanding of what the judgment
19was.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Those are the words complained of and that is what I was
21fined on. Will you comment ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, if I have copy of judgment in front of me, then
23I will, then I will be prepared to comment on that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you go to page 66 of your report? We now come to
25Irving and Holocaust denial.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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