Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 217

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 1 MR IRVING:     Yes. As long as your Lordship appreciates that the
 2time will come when I will justify whatever remarks
 3I made.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Absolutely.
 5 MR IRVING:     The only problem is we have a rather unruly
 6witness, I think, who ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, that is not an appropriate comment at
 9 MR IRVING:     Well, I think it was not necessary really for him
10to have read out that passage if he was not prepared
11really to be cross-examined on it in depth on his own
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it happened. It was not unruly
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Thank, my Lord.
16 MR IRVING:     Do you accept that this phrase "the enemies of free
17speech" to which the full phrase applies, "the traditional
18enemies" includes governments, political groups, trades
19unions and others as well the Jewish community leaders and
20other organizations?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, where is the passage then where you say that? Are
22we back to the website again?
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, I am back to your reference in that paragraph, to
24paragraph 2.5.4 to "the Jewish community" which you now
25admit is a phrase that I do not use.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have we got the reference in the website?

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 1 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 2.5.4, my Lord, of his report: "Irving
 2believes that there is an international campaign
 3orchestrated by the 'Jewish community' ('our traditional
 4enemies')" as though there is an equation between the two,
 5an equation, shall we say?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, Mr Irving, you do in your speeches repeatedly refer
 7to "our traditional enemies", and I think it is clear, in
 8my judgment, that by "our traditional enemies" you mean,
 9essentially, the Jews.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not true that the phrase that I use is "the
11traditional enemies of free speech"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not always, no. You refer to "our traditional enemies" on
13a number of occasions.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not obvious that one is the short form of the other?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Our traditional enemies" is three words and "the
17traditional enemies of free speech" is five or six words.
18One is the short form of the other?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I quote on page 168 "our traditional enemies", "our old
20traditional enemies", and so on.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you appreciate that when you are speaking you do
22not use again and again and again exactly the same phrase,
23you modify it slightly. Sometimes you use the long form
24and sometimes you use the short form?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I have gone through a number of your speeches,
26Mr Irving, and you do use exactly the same phrases on a

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 1number of ----
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     "The traditional enemies of free speech"?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- because you speak in a number of different places,
 4"our traditional enemies".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And "the traditional enemies of free speech".
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You have used both of those formulations.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and "the traditional enemies of free speech", as I
 8formulated them both in public and on my website, include
 9the people who are trying to censor the Internet, is that
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think, Mr Irving -- correct me if I am wrong -- you have
12taken to talking about the traditional enemies of free
13speech more recently. In the early 1990s, it was -- you
14were much more inclined to talk about our traditional
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have any evidence, any kind of statistical
17evidence, for that or that just a gut feeling you have
18that makes you say that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is just an impression I have on looking at and
20reading your speeches and your writings.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have no evidentiary basis for that apart from your
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is my impression from having read your material.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you now answer my question and say, is it true that
25on my website and elsewhere I have listed as the
26traditional enemies of free speech, governments, trades

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 1unions and people who are censoring the Internet?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Again, Mr Irving, we are back to the problem ----
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     And there are separate dossiers on each of those people?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- that we need to look at that page of your website
 5where you ----
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are going to have to pause until somebody
 7has been able to find it. I do not mean pause altogether,
 8I mean come back to it.
 9 MR IRVING:     I have one more question.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     All I can say is that when I checked out, the list
11provided of some traditional enemies of free speech, there
12were virtually all Jewish.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Can I intervene because it involves a technical
14problem which is beyond me. Could I ask Miss Rogers to
15explain it?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you mind, Miss Rogers?
17 MS ROGERS:     My Lord, what happens is if you click on the
18website, there is what is called down a pull down menu
19which lists the organizations under a heading, but I am
20told -- I cannot do it-- by others as well it is not
21possible to print the pull down menu.
22 MR IRVING:     On Mackintosh it is.
23 MS ROGERS:     What one could do, one could either type out the
24list, or perhaps your Lordship, with assistance, could go
25on Mr Irving's website and have a look and see the list.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will do that. Is it possible to give me a

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 1reference to where I will find it on the website?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is very easy, my Lord, to find it on the website. It
 4is a very clearly organised website.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right, thank you very much, Miss Rogers. I
 6am not surprised you ----
 7 MR IRVING:     So that each of these particular things has a
 8dossier, right? Each of these organisations, the
 9Anti-Defamation League, the Board of Deputies, each of
10them has a dossier?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, shall we leave it that I will have
13a look, and I know what the question is, whether they are
14mostly Jewish organizations or whether they are not.
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, you are just going to have a look at the
16menu, are you not, is that correct?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not going to browse generally through
18the Internet. No, I did not mean that in any way
19critically of it. I just am not going to; there is plenty
20else to be doing.
21 MR IRVING:     Because there are 53 megabytes of information on
22that and I have idea which particular part of the forest
23you are going to get lost in.
24 (To the witness):     Do you accept that there is
25concerted campaign by the traditional enemies of free
26speech to refuse to debate with people like me?

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