Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 217

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    Why do you say that I equate the traditional enemies of
 1free speech with the "Jewish community", in quotation
 2marks, when it is quite plain from everything that I have
 3written that they are part of the bundle of people who try
 4to suppress free speech, either by refusing to debate, or
 5by smashing windows, or by putting pressure on publishers,
 6or by inserting filters in the Internet or whatever?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have already given my answer to that, the fact that on
 8your website your list of the traditional enemies of free
 9speech includes ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is entirely Jewish, is entirely Jewish community, is it?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     90 per cent, I think.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I wish we could find it because, if Professor
13Evans is right, it is an answer to the question and it is
14quite an illuminating answer.
15 MR IRVING:     I agree, it is. Would you agree that the
16Australian Government is one of the people listed on that
17pull down menu?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would have to see the list.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that Cyber Patrol which is a filtering
20system for the Internet Surf Watch?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Until and until we find it, Mr Irving, this
22is a bit difficult, is it not?
23 MR IRVING:     I am trying to put some ideas in your Lordship's
24mind, that this witness is not accurate when he says 90
25per cent of the representatives on there are. Obviously
26and finally one further question on this, would you agree

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 1that in view of the fact that these particular bodies are
 2the ones who have inflicted most damage on me over the
 3last 10 years ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me just quote, Mr Irving, another quote from page 168
 5from a speech you made in the Clarendon Club again, 29th
 6May 1992 ----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this relevant to the questions that we have asked?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "I never used to believe in the existence of an
 9international Jewish conspiracy", you said, "I'm not even
10sure now if there's an international Jewish conspiracy.
11All I know is that people are conspiring internationally
12against me, and they do mostly turn out to be".
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     ...
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "... (drowned out by laughter and applause) which I think
15it is fairly clear that the next word was going to be
17 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am not able to put bundle E to this
18witness and ask him questions on the documents which will
19substantiate what I just said in that speech, but
20certainly when we come to submissions which I am going to
21make, then I will justify that particular element.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure why you say you are not ----
23 MR IRVING:     Because your Lordship has said that this is not the
24appropriate time to introduce bundle E with the documents
25on the global endeavour to suppress my rights to publish
26and write.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, and the reason I said was that it seemed
 2to me that the point went to the damage that you say you
 3suffered as a result of what you say are libels. That is
 4something you can deal with in your evidence or in
 5submissions. But if you are challenging -- but, you see,
 6it is coming in a slightly different context. I think
 7really, and when one gets to the bottom of it, it is
 8further evidence -- I think this is the thrust of what
 9Professor Evans is saying at the moment -- of an
10anti-semitic attitude.
11 MR IRVING:     I agree, if left alone.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On that, you are entitled to cross-examine.
13I hope you do not understand that one document may be
14relevant on two issues. On one issue ----
15 MR IRVING:     I will not use the licence that your Lordship has
16given me.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On any reliance that Professor Evans places
18on particular documents as showing your anti-Semitism, you
19are perfectly entitled -- I make this absolutely clear --
20to cross-examine. So if you want to show him that
21document from your bundle E, then please do, or your clip
22E. It has not become a bundle yet, has it?
23 MR IRVING:     It is quite substantial. Do you have bundle a
24bundle E in front of you? That is how big it is. It has
25been quite a major conspiracy. This is only a part of it.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not encouraging you to go right the way

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 1through it. It is simply that if there is any ----
 2 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord, but I think, firstly, one or two
 3general questions.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page, Mr Irving?
 5 MR IRVING:     I am going to ask him one or two general questions
 6first to set the scenery. (To the witness): Witness, is
 7it your opinion that that remark you just quoted is
 8evidence of an anti-semitic state of mind?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, which remark was this?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     You one that you decided to read out about the
11international conspiracy.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Conspiracy, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is criticism of Jewish people or community permitted for
14whatever reason?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We had this yesterday. I do not think we
16need to traverse that ground again.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When I say "yesterday", I mean Thursday.
19 MR IRVING:     If you are shown scattered evidence of a concerted
20endeavour by representatives of that community to abrogate
21my rights to write and publish, over a period of, say, 25
22years, around the world, would you be satisfied that that
23was a justified comment to make in those conditions?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, that is a very hypothetical question. In order to
25be -- I mean, I am constitutionally disinclined to believe
26in international conspiracies, and it would take a very

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 1great deal to persuade me that there was an
 2internationally orchestrated conspiracy of this kind. It
 3is the belief in an international Jewish conspiracy is a
 4central element, in my view, of the most extreme forms of
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     You talk about an international Jewish conspiracy, you are
 7just talking about the kind of protocols of a Zion
 8conspiracy, are you, or is one entitled to believe in a
 9specific endeavour to achieve a certain aim, namely to
10silence David Irving as being a particularly dangerous
11historian? Is that an acceptable concept in your mind?
12Can you believe there is such an endeavour ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not myself believe there is such an endeavour, no.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     If ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But I have to say that it has not been a part of my task
16to investigate whether there has or not. I am not
17speaking, in other words, as an expert when I say that.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I am wondering what use it is going to be to put
19these documents piecemeal to this witness. I do not think
20it is at this point.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     None at all. I mean, his position is very
22clear. He does not believe that there is an international
23Jewish conspiracy. Therefore, he thinks that when you
24talk of one, you are displaying evidence of anti-semitism.
25That is the end of it as far as this witness goes, I

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