Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 217

<< 1-5216-217 >>
    I should intervene. Mr Irving actually misread
 1transcript. The report actually did not say "he seems to
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "He believes".
 4 MR RAMPTON:     It says "he believes".
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did notice that.
 6 MR IRVING:     If had omitted any reference to book burning from a
 7passage about the Nazi activities in 1933, that would have
 8been duplicitous, would it not?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It depends what you are trying to write about the Nazi
10activities in 1933.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     They were suppressing books that they disapproved of.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you are writing a dissertation about the Nazi policy
13towards the Civil Service or the Nazi policy towards the
14Bau(?) in 1933, then I do not think book burning would
15necessarily have been a relevant consideration.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I had omitted the book burning in Berlin in March 1933
17from my Goebbels' biography, then this would have been
18duplicitous, would it not, and if I had just said, "Well,
19that did not really belong"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is certainly true since Goebbels was centrally
21concerned with it.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I had omitted the window smashing, which is very
23apposite, from the Kristallnacht, that would also have
24been duplicitous, would it not?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Absolutely, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     So why is it not duplicitous that you omitted that passage

.   P-51

 1from that passage you quoted?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I understand your point, but the fact is in
 3paragraph 254 Professor Evans does refer to your belief
 4that there is an international campaign to prevent you
 5from speaking and selling your books. So he is not
 6actually concealing it, is he, in his report? Anyway,
 7I understand the point, but let us go on to the next
 9 MR IRVING:     Many paranoid people have beliefs which are not
10supported by evidence, my Lord, but if there is a campaign
11of window smashing which is in the discovery, which is in
12the documents before the court, the witness should not
13have cut it out of the part that he quotes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I understand that is the criticism you make
15of him, yes.
16 MR IRVING:     That is my submission. That I regard as earning
17all the adjectives that have been heaped on me by this
19     (To the witness): In that same paragraph, 254,
20we are back to your report, Professor. You say: "Irving
21does not appear to believe that other historians can rise
22to this challenge, rather he believes there is an
23international campaign ordered by the 'Jewish community
24(our traditional enemies)'"?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     What entitles you to equate those two as though I had said

.   P-52

 1that the traditional enemies of the truth or free speech
 2are the Jewish community?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, on your website you list, you have a section where
 4you list the traditional enemies of free speech.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which includes the Jewish community leaders, yes.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Nearly all of them. I think there is only one
 7organization there which is not a Jewish organization.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you put the words "Jewish community" in quotation
 9marks as though you are taking it out of some document of
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I did not want to imply that there was a Jewish community
12in that sense. That is why I put it in inverted commas.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     You refer quite correctly to my website where I have a
14menu of traditional enemies of free speech, some of whom
15are specific organizations which are Jewish in character?
16That is correct?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Nearly all of whom -- all apart from one.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you got the reference for this either in
19your own report or in the website file because I would
20quite like to see it if the point is being taken. It is
21difficult ----
22 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is page 168 of my report, my Lord, where I detail a
24number of cases where Mr Irving has equated -- I quote
25here a speech in 1992: "'Our old traditional enemies ...
26(are) the great international merchant banks are

.   P-53

 1controlled by people who are no friends of yours and
 2mine', who were 'annoyed' friend by" ----
 3 MR IRVING:     What paragraph is that?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     168, paragraph 50.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there an ellipsis in the middle of that?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you please look at the document and see the four
 8sentences, three fullstops, four semi-colons and 86 words
 9that those three dots represent?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could you direct me to ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     And see if that is a genuine quote?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- the document, please?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. That is fair.
14 MR IRVING:     That is the document, I am very familiar with that
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could you direct me to it, please?
17 MR IRVING:     This is highly illuminative and illustrative of
18this witness's methods.
19 MR RAMPTON:     I think it is the Clarendon Club. I think your
20Lordship has probably already seen that, in fact.
21Unfortunately, mine is not here.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     D2(ii).
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It is K4, tab 5, Clarendon Club.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure this is actually going to be
25the answer to the question, but that may be wrong.
26 MR IRVING:     The question is what do those three dots represent?

.   P-54

 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     K4?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     K4, tab 5.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, 5, I have that.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     This is the Clarendon Club in September 1992 which
 5I think is the reference we have here?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "Our old traditional enemies".
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Bottom of page 3 of 13.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Right, shall I read that out, if you would not
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
11 MR IRVING:     My first question is ----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     May I read that out then?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is just going to read it first and then
14ask the question.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is about Andrew Neil, the Editor of the Sunday Times,
16and the Goebbels' diaries which he was publishing in your
17-- from you, and that he had come under pressure "'from
18our traditional enemies, pressure not just from the
19advertising industry, pressure not just from the
20self-appointed, ugly, greasy nasty, perverted
21representatives of that community, he came under pressure
22from the international community too because the Sunday
23Times, like many other newspapers, needs international
24capital to survive and the international capital is
25provided by the great international merchant banks, and
26the great international banks are controlled by people who

.   P-55

<< 1-5216-217 >>