Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 217

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    You said that my footnotes are opaque because they do not
 1expert report by Robert van Pelt, and that expert report
 2is about 769 pages long, is it not?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is not an opaque footnote?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, because, when one says see this or see that, that
 6means that you are not relying on that for what you say.
 7It is simply a further reference directing the reader, if
 8the reader wants to gain further information about that
 9particular topic, to go there. If I were relying on
10Professor van Pelt's report for anything I say in my own,
11which I am not, then I would footnote it as precisely as
12I could.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why are you not?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Why am I not relying on Professor van Pelt?
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Is there a reason?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, his report is about something different from mine
17and I thought I should reach my own conclusions on the
18basis of my own work, but I do cross-reference other
19expert reports in so far as I think it is useful.
20 MR IRVING:     It is a strange kind of cross-reference that just
21says "See expert report" by somebody.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, can you point me to the page?
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will come to it later on. I am just looking for it and
24I do not want to hold up the court. If you would you go
25now to page 41 of the expert report, please, paragraph
26251? Can I ask that you be given bundle H1(i), please, so

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 1we can see what you have omitted from the quotations? It
 2is a passage where you say: "They are not lies, what I
 3have published, they are true. At any rate, the truth as
 4I perceive it". Then you omit bits.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where is this -- yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     That should be H1(i) at page 94?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Page 94. Yes.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whereabouts on the page, bottom of the page,
 9is it?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is near the bottom of the page.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
12 MR IRVING:     Do you not admit a passage there about how it gets
13far more expensive the closer you approximate towards the
14truth, that it is quite easy to find out 90 per cent of
15the truth, and then it gets a bit more expensive to get 95
16per cent of the truth, and to get absolute truth is
17impossible, but it gets more and more and more expensive?
18That is roughly the sense of it. I do not have it in
19front of me, but I am familiar with the speech.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is where you say it is a shame that we lost the
21United States.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. "They are not out lies, what I have published, they
23are true, at any rate, the truth as I perceive it"?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then you left out the explanatory bit?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. "Even the most erudite and hard working historian", I

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 1say, "is never going to obtain 100 per cent truth. He is
 2only going to approximate it", and that, I think, gives
 3the sense of what you are saying. I come back to the
 4point, I echo the point that you have made about your own
 5work, this report is already 740 pages long, and in this
 6quotation, I think I give the essence of what you are
 7saying there.
 8     Moreover, of course, I do put the ellipse in,
 9three dots, to tell the reader that I am leaving something
10out there so the reader can do, as you have done, go back
11and cheek the speech and see if I have left anything out
12that I should not have left out. That is not the case in
13quite a number of the cases in which you abbreviate
14quotations from the original sources, as I have shown in
15my report.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But it is fair to say Mr Irving does go on
18really to say he is one of those writers who does try to
19get the extra 10 per cent and get 100 per cent accuracy?
20I think that is the burden of the passage as a whole.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, indeed, yes.
22 MR IRVING:     Unfortunately, not everyone has our patience to go
23and look up the original document to see what has been
24replaced by the three dots. There is another passage,
25while you still have that H1 in front of you, please, can
26I ask you to go to page 106 of H1(i)? This has a rather

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 1more important kind of material that has been left out of
 2the indented paragraph?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the middle of page 41 of the expert report, my Lord.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have it.
 6 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will see that the witness has omitted
 7all the reference to the organized campaign of window
 8smashing and so on that went on around this country to
 9persuade Waterstones not to stock my books and other
10booksellers. He then goes on to mock me for suggesting
11that there is a campaign, having cut out the material
12relating to it out of the quotation.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, where do I mock you?
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 42 at 254: "Irving does not appear to believe that
15other historians can rise to the challenge; rather he
16believes that there is an international campaign organized
17by the Jewish community in many countries to stop him from
18speaking and selling his books"?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, that is my sense of what you believe. I do not see
20anything mocking in that. I am trying to convey your own
21point of view there. Once again, of course, in this
22passage that you mention, there are ellipses to denote
23that I have omitted some material, and really what I am
24trying to do here is to describe your view of history.
25I am not really concerned with all the details that you
26give here about the campaign which you allege is being

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 1conducted against your work. That is not what I am
 2concerned with.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Here you go on about the campaign I allege has been
 4conducted against my work, but you have deprived his
 5Lordship of knowing details of what that campaign is; the
 6fact that there was an organized campaign of window
 7smashing in the big book stores to persuade them not to
 8stock my books.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     How is that relevant to my report? I really do not see
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because you say (as you have just said) that I allege
12there is a campaign and you say in paragraph 2.5.4 that
13I seem to believe that there is a campaign to stop me
14selling my books, and yet you have cut out of that
15quotation concrete evidence of the campaign that has been
16going on?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But it is not my concern in this report to deal with the
18campaign. I have given your view here that there is a
19campaign, and I think in the context of a report which is
20about your treatment of historical subjects, that that is
21enough. If I went, if I had gone in this report into
22every issue like that, it would have been enormously long
23and I really do not think that is relevant to what was
24asked to do.
25 MR RAMPTON:     I should intervene. Mr Irving actually misread
26the report. It is only so that it gets on the

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