Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 217

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is correct.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did he publish these in a semi-official volume called
 3Hitler's Entire Manuscripts?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed he did.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did it take him a substantial length of time to confess
 6that these were from the same source, the forger Konrad
 7Kujau?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you tell me it did, then yes. He certainly in the end
 9I think recognized that they were forgeries.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     In fact he wrote a report, did he not, in the Journal of
11Contemporary History in which he admitted that 4 per cent
12of that volume was fake, only 4 per cent? Is that
13correct?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I do not recall it but I will accept your word for
15it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     In your little bundle of documents which I gave you this
17morning, would you just turn rapidly to page 41, which is
18a photograph of a train?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     The large endless train of wagons with people stuffed in
21like cattle, is it not?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     They do not appear to be ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Several hundred people to each coal wagon?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would not say like cattle. They do not appear to be
25grossly overcrowded. They are full.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware Professor Jackeln used this photograph as an

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 1illustration for Rumanian Jews being shipped to the gas
 2chambers at Auschwitz?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     On a television programme. Can you confirm that that is
 5fact Hamburg railway Station after the war?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Very difficult to say.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I tell that the rubber stamp on the back of the
 8original photograph says Hamburg -- it is in the Hamburg
 9Railway Station archives now, in their picture archives.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     What would your opinion be of a historian who uses
12photographs in that manner, photographs of a postwar
13scene, and says that it is a photograph of Jews being
14shipped off to Auschwitz?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am a bit bewildered by this, Mr Irving.
16You said "so what?" to me not very long, "so what?" to
17you. Why does whether Professor Jackeln mistook Hamburg
18Railway Station for a convoy taking Romanian Jews to a
19concentration camp matter? It is your reliability, not
20Professor Jackeln's that is in question.
21 MR IRVING:     If Jackeln's words are going to be used against me,
22as they will be, in expert reports, then I am entitled, in
23my view, to put to the court the qualifications that
24Professor Jackeln has.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Again, you are in the difficulty that
26Professor Evans has relied on other historians in his

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 1report, but in the end it must be Professor Evans' view,
 2whether I accept it or not, that counts.
 3 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not actually going to stop you, but
 5I really do not think at the moment, until we get to a
 6point where Professor Evans says, "Jackeln says this, ergo
 7it must be right", that this is really helpful. There is
 8an awful lot of material to be covered in Professor Evans'
 9report, but we have not really begun to grapple with it
10yet.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me answer the question. Of course, what I think of
12him depends in this instance on whether he knew that that
13was a picture of Germans in Hamburg on a shopping trip to
14the Ruhr in 1946 and then deliberately presented it, and
15falsely presented it, as Rumanian Jews being shipped off
16to Auschwitz, or whether it was a genuine mistake. You
17yourself have said in the course of this trial that
18historians make many errors, and that one wants to correct
19them, and one attempts to do so. You pointed out an error
20in your own 1991 edition of Hitler's War, the absence of
21your name on the title page, so we all make mistakes.
22There is a distinction which I drew on Thursday, which I
23would hold to, between, as it were, genuine mistakes and
24errors, which unfortunately historians are all prone to,
25on the one hand, and deliberate falsification on the
26other.

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 1 MR IRVING:     I have to let you get away with that, because I am
 2not allowed now to ask any further questions about the
 3photograph or about ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did say I was not stopping you, but I was
 5telling you that at the moment I do not find it very
 6helpful. Do not say you are not allowed to; you are
 7allowed to.
 8 MR IRVING:     Is Professor Jackeln a recognized authority on
 9Hitler and the Holocaust? Has he written books and
10articles about it?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, he has written books and articles about Hitler in
12particular, Hitler's views.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it diminish him in your esteem that he has fallen
14repeatedly for forgeries produced by a notorious forger,
15that he has he published them, that he did not willingly
16confess that they were forgeries or where they came from,
17and that he has relied on a dubious photograph?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you mentioned one instance in which he fell for
19material from a notorious forger. If you can show me
20there are many others, then I will accept the word
21"repeatedly".
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that, in dealing with your treatment of the
23Hitler diaries, you accused me of liking the Hitler
24diaries and believing they were genuine because they gave
25a favourable impression of Hitler?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Again, I am following Mr Harris there. Let me quote him

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 1in explaining why you endorsed them at a late stage,
 2"Finally there was the fact that the diaries did not
 3contain any evidence to suggest that Hitler was aware of
 4the Holocaust". Really I am following Mr Harris's
 5argument there.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     On what basis do you say ----
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That was one of a number of reasons which he puts forward
 8for your having endorsed them at a late stage.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     On what basis do you say that these fake diaries showed
10Hitler ordered a stop to the Reichskristallnacht?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I did say quite a long time ago
12that I am not going to pay any attention to the Hitler
13diaries because it is not any part of the Defendants'
14case. Really these questions are directly focused on the
15Hitler diaries, so I do now say you must move on.
16 MR IRVING:     In paragraph 2.4.9, lines 5 and 6, there is a
17sentence there beginning, "If an obvious forgery like the
18Hitler diaries gives credence to my views, I will use
19it". Is that not a reflection -- am I allowed to say
20that, my Lord?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have already told you in the clearest
22possible way that I am not going to place any reliance in
23forming my judgment on what did or did not happen in the
24case of the Hitler diaries, so questions about it can only
25do you harm.
26 MR IRVING:     

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