Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 217

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    My final question on this particular angle is this. When
 1you have read, as you or your researchers have, my
 2interview notes on all these ladies and gentleman on
 3Hitler's private staff, did I conceal anything detrimental
 4that they told me? In other words, the Walter Frentz
 5episode, the shootings at Minsk, Hitler's remark to Krista
 6Schroeder, "now I have had a shower and I feel as clean as
 7a new born babe", did I conceal that or did I properly use
 8it in my books?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You did not conceal either of those two things, no.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     So what I found I used?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not in every case. There is an example in detail later on
12which we can discuss.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you tell us what that example is from memory?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not from memory, I am afraid.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Perhaps we can wait until we get to it. There is
16one further question. Has any other writer apart from me
17got as close to these members of Hitler's private staff?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I think that is quite right.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, if I had not done it, then a body of information would
20have been lost for the world of academics and scholars?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have discussed this before. I do not dispute the fact
22that you have obtained a great deal of material, not just
23interview material but also documentary material, which
24other historians have not obtained.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Were any of these Adjutants interrogated at Nuremberg?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is an awful lot of them, there is about 25 of them.

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 1I am sure you know more than I do about their
 2interrogations at Nuremberg. Some of them of course were
 3put on trial or were witnesses in subsequent trials.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very few of them.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Karl Wolff is the obvious one.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not right that Karl Wolff was not put on trial until
 7the 60s because a secret deal had been reached between him
 8and the Americans?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not know about the secret deal but he was not put on
10trial until 1964, I think.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you not heard of Operation Crossword in which Karl
12Wolff was engaged in Italy at the end of the war, his
13negotiations with the OSS?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You would have to provide me with documentary evidence for
15a deal, I think.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to go on to page 38, my Lord. Now we are
17dealing with the Hitler's diaries forgeries, paragraph
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you accept that once again I came into early possession
21of unusual materials? In this case they turned out to be
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Were these the materials which you purchased in
24October 1982 and were intending to sell to McMillans?
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is your evidence for the word "purchased"?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is in audio cassette 75, where you said you bought

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 1them from the forger and then you recognized them as
 2forgeries after examining them.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, can I interrupt and make this
 4enquiry of you, really? . I realize that Professor Evans
 5refers to the Hitler diaries in his report. I am just
 6wondering what relevance they have to the issues in this
 7action. Can you help me? I am sorry to interrupt you but
 8are obviously starting on a fresh point.
 9 MR IRVING:     If I am familiar with Professor Evans' arguments of
10having flipflopped, changed my position on them, and ipso
11facto being unserious, is that right, Professor Evans?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not use the word "unserious", but I derive from
13Robert Harris's book, which seems to me to be a reliable
14book, written I think partly in co-operation with you,
15certainly with use of materials you supplied to him, the
16fact that having declared that the diaries, quite rightly,
17were forgeries, you then subsequently declared that they
18were genuine. If you tell me that that is not true, of
19course I would have to accept it.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us see where we are going with this.
21This is not, I do not think, any part of the pleaded
22case. Mr Rampton, that is right, is it not?
23 MR RAMPTON:     That is right, my Lord.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are in the difficult position, Mr Irving,
25because here is the principal expert witness for the
26Defendants making this criticism of you and it is a

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 1serious criticism, but it is not one that in the end plays
 2any part in the Defendants case.
 3 MR IRVING:     I read your Lordship's mind as being that you will
 4pay no attention to this. In that case I will move on.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will not.
 6 MR IRVING:     In the next paragraph 247 you mention Gerhardt
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is he one of the historians whose views you accept?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On what?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is he an eminent historian? He is not a Holocaust denier,
12is he?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He is an eminent historian.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     In fact, he is now retired and his chair is occupied by
15Christopher Browning, is it not?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is the case, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to be looking at Professor Jackeln, my Lord,
18Professor Aberhard Jackeln, who is a historian whose name
19will come up I think more than once over the next few
20days. He played a part in the Hitler diaries. I am not
21going to look at the Hitler diaries as such but I am going
22to ask questions which I think have relevance to
23establishing the reliability of Professor Jackeln. Is it
24right that Professor Aberhard Jackeln very early on came
25into possession of one of the diaries, the 1935 Hitler

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     From what I remember of Mr Harris's book, which is the
 2source of my information, yes. That is to say, I do not
 3rely on Professor Jackeln in my report.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Really I am trying through you to find out what we know
 5about Professor Jackeln as far as reliability goes, as far
 6as his credentials go.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It does not really play a role in my report. That
 8is to say, I am not writing about Professor Jackeln's
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you write that Jackeln authenticated some of the
11Hitler materials?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I did not, no. It is my understanding from Mr Harris's
13book that he had doubts about him. Of course I am aware
14of the fact that Professor Jackeln did include some forged
15material in a book that he edited of Hitler's writings.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are not familiar with the fact that he authenticated
17the 1935 Hitler diary on behalf of a Stuttgart
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not, but if that is in Mr Harris's book ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     You mentioned the other materials. He believed that a
21very large number of poems and handwritings apparently by
22Hitler were genuine, is that correct?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We seem to be back on the Hitler diaries. I
24thought we had agreed ----
25 MR IRVING:     No we are now off that. We are now on Jackeln,
26very firmly on Jackeln, my Lord.

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