Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition
Pages 1 - 217 of 217
1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Monday, 14th February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
24 PROCEEDINGS - DAY NINETEEN
1 <Day 19) Monday, 14th February 2000
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving.
3 MR IRVING: May it please the court. I have given your
4Lordship a little bundle of documents. That is a bundle
5of translations, my Lord, is that right, which your
6Lordship asked for, the Kommissar order and various other
7documents. I do not think your Lordship needs to look at
8it now, but your Lordship did ask for the translations.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very kind of you. Thank you. The
10usual question, where should it go?
11 MR RAMPTON: We do not have them.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is the Kommissar order in German?
13 MR IRVING: I have a set of copies for the Defence, but
14I forgot to bring them.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Could somebody look out where the Kommissar
16order is in German?
17 MR RAMPTON: We do not have the translations, so I do not know
18what document it is.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you remember the Kommissar order being
20referred to? I am not actually sure we have it in German
21either. Anyway, can I leave it with you?
22 MR IRVING: Yes, guidelines and Kommissar order.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
24 MR RAMPTON: The one of May 1941, is that the one?
25 MR IRVING: That is correct, yes.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: June, I think.
1 MR IRVING: My Lord, I have also given you a little bundle
2which I have called temporarily bundle F, Professor
3Evans. These are documents which, in the course of
4cross-examination, I intend to put to Professor Evans.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is very helpful to have them all in one
7 MR IRVING: I have provided the defence with four or five sets.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
9 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, there is something I should wish to
10mention, if I may. I do it now because time is getting
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
13 MR RAMPTON: I received on Sunday, yesterday, what purports to
14be a further witness statement of Dr Fox.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
16 MR RAMPTON: Has your Lordship been sent that?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think so, no.
18 MR RAMPTON: I think your Lordship should be given a copy.
19 MR IRVING: I have a copy but in fact I decided not to call
20that witness. I should say that now in fact.
21 MR RAMPTON: That is helpful. I can sit down and be quiet.
22 MR IRVING: Quite simply, the witness was going to testify on
23two matters. One was what Mr Rampton referred to as
24freedom of speech matters, and I was also going to add to
25that the police decodes, but I decided on balance that
26I know as much about the police decodes as he does. We
1have both worked on the same body, so I think it would
2help to save the court's time if we do not call him and
3just rely on his written statement.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a matter for you, obviously.
5 MR IRVING: My Lord, I now wish to continue the
6cross-examination of Professor Evans.
7 < PROFESSOR EVANS, Recalled
8< Cross-examined by MR IRVING, continued.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Professor Evans, come back into the
10witness box. I wondered before you start, Mr Irving, if
11I might ask one question that is in my mind of Professor
12Evans. It is this. You were asked, you remember, on
13Thursday what material of Mr Irving's you had been
14studying in order to arrive at the conclusions you arrived
15at in your written report.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Your answer was that you had focused, at any rate, on what
18Mr Irving described as the chain of documents on which he
19relies for his contention that Hitler was relatively
20friendly towards the Jews. I should know myself the
21answer to this, but where does Mr Irving make his
22reference to the chain of documents? I think it is his
23phrase, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, it is.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I simply cannot remember where and when he made that
1 MR IRVING: My Lord, perhaps I can help? I have made reference
2in various speeches to the chain of documents of course,
3and talks, and probably in the introduction to ----
4 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship will find it on page 220 of
5Professor Evans's report at paragraph 4.3A(1).
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Now that is on the transcript, that may
7really be enough, but can I go to it?
8 MR RAMPTON: BBC Television in June 1977.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is sufficient, Professor Evans.
10Thank you. Yes, Mr Irving. Do you want to pause and find
11it? It will be quicker if you have it, I suspect.
12 MR IRVING: I made a number of sets for the gentlemen of the
13press this morning so that they can follow what we are
14doing, because there were complaints about that, my Lord.
15Today I intend to continue to explore in general, if I can
16just in two lines tell you what I am going to be doing,
17the credibility of the witness with special reference to
18the remarks that he has made about my methodology in the
19introductory parts of his report. We will certainly cover
20the first 100 to 150 pages of the report today, my Lord.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You must take your own course, but bear in
22mind in the end I am anxious to look at the individual
23criticisms as well as the general comments.
24 MR IRVING: Yes. (To the witness): Professor Evans, today is
25the 55th anniversary of the air raid on Dresden. Would
26you have described that as a Holocaust?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I could have described that as "a" Holocaust, but
2I would, of course, make a distinction between that and
3"the" Holocaust as it has come to be known. One can use
4the term "Holocaust". It is, I believe, used for any
5event which involves large scale fire or burnings commonly
6used in every day reporting. That is a distinct thing
7from "the" Holocaust which I think has a special meaning.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] That is the etymology of the word. It means "consumed by
9fire" or "sacrificed by fire". Are you aware that in your
10report the phrase "Holocaust denier" occurs 261 times?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to confess I did not count.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] In fact, the words "denier" or "denial" occur 352 times,
13which is a degree of repetition, would you agree? Are you
14obsessed with Holocaust deniers?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I most certainly am not. I have to say I have not really
16confronted the phenomenon until this case but, of course,
17it is at the centre. It is perhaps the central issue in
18this case and so I think, since I was asked to write about
19it in my report, it is inevitable that that phrase occurs
21 Q. [Mr Irving] You say you were not confronted with it until this trial.
22Do you normally write about things you have not studied in
23any kind of depth?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that historians always need to move on to new
25subjects, face a new challenge, otherwise they would be
26endlessly repeating themselves.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I draw your attention to page 206 of the book which
2you wrote? Do you recognize the book that you wrote?
3This is the American edition?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, indeed.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] I will just read out a passage, if I may, of your own
6words from page 206: "Holocaust denier literature which
7declares that six million Jews were never murdered by the
8Nazis and that Auschwitz and similar extermination camps
9are fabrications of a postwar anti-German proJewish
10political lobby" -- is the way you still define Holocaust
11denial, the statement that Auschwitz and the other camps
12did not exist?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Could I have a look at that passage, please?
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. It is on page 206 of the book.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Thank you very much.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] What I am asking you is has your position changed in view
17of the ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Page and what?
19 Q. [Mr Irving] 206. It is the paragraph beginning "Extreme relativism"
20and towards the end of that paragraph, I repeat: "Thus
21'Holocaust denial literature' which declares that six
22million Jews were never murdered by the Nazis and that
23Auschwitz and similar extermination camps are fabrications
24of a postwar anti-German proJewish political lobby". My
25question is this. Is this the way you define Holocaust
26denial now or have you changed?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. That is rather carelessly phrased, I am afraid.
2I think I was trying to say there -- "extermination" is
3the central word there, that such camps were used mainly
4or exclusively for extermination. I can see what you
5mean. It is slightly carelessly phrased, I have to admit.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it possible to accept that the Nazis murdered in the
7most brutal manner very large numbers of Jews by whatever
8means and still be a Holocaust denier, in your view?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That depends on what you mean by "very large numbers".
10I think I defined in my report what I mean by Holocaust
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Like one or two million people. Would that be acceptable?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think you have to take the different -- I have listed
14four what I think are central elements of the Holocaust
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And those four elements I think go together, they do
18include a minimisation of numbers.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] So any reduction of the numbers, whatever, is a denial?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think it is difficult to be very precise about this.
21I say in my report that the generally accepted number by
22historians is between 5 and 6 million, and there are a
23number of disputes about that, but it does go together
24with the three other conditions of Holocaust denial which
25I lay out in my report. Of course, I think I do say in my
26report that some people would, as it were, fall into one
1category of the four, but not into the others.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Were these four categories arbitrarily set up by
3you, like to make them fit like a shoe the Claimant in
4this present case, or did you always have these categories
5in mind long you before you were commissioned to be an
6expert witness in this case?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Neither, to be honest. When I was commissioned to be an
8expert witness, of course the first thing I did was to
9study the literature on Holocaust denial, and from that
10literature, as you can see from my report, I go through it
11at some length. There are varying different definitions
12of conditions by the different political scientists and
13historians who have written about it, but those four
14I think are common to all of the definitions that I looked
15at in the course of preparing this report.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. They do vary, though, do they not, these four sets
17of definitions by the different authors?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think these four sets really vary. Of course
19they are put in slightly different ways and different
20authors add on other conditions, some of them peculiar to
21the time at which they were writing.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] So, if somebody was to knock off two or three million
23arbitrarily from the figures, that would be Holocaust
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If it is arbitrary, then I think it involves an element
26therefore of falsification of history, which then I think
1falls into that category, but I do want to stress that
2these four conditions should be taken together.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not all or nothing, is it? You can get
4somebody who is an outright 100 per cent denier and
5somebody who perhaps does not deny it to the same full
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Exactly, my Lord, it is not a hard and ----
8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I think arguing about definitions is not hugely
10 MR IRVING: I agree, my Lord. We should not really be asking
11an expert witness about meanings of words, I appreciate
12that, my Lord, but I am working towards something. You
13have a little bundle of documents in front of you, a loose
14bundle called F?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not, actually.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you turn to page (it should be) 37, which is a
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They are numbered on the bottom?
19 Q. [Mr Irving] They are numbered on the bottom, the one after that
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you agree that that says it is a plaque, is that
23correct, a memorial plaque?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you recognize that plaque?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not, to be honest, no.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you agree that it says: "4 million people suffered
2and died here at the hands of the Nazi murderers between
3the years 1940 and 1945"?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, that is what it says.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you now turn the page please? Is that another
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, that is right.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you recognize that plaque?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not now that I can see what it is.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Does it appear to be in the same place as where the
11previous plaque was?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I will take your word for it.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you agree this one says: "Never let this place be a
14cry of despair and a warning to humanity where the Nazis
15murdered about one and a half million men, women and
16children, namely Jews from various countries of Europe"?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this also Auschwitz?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They are both in Auschwitz, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] So somebody has arbitrarily reduced the figure from 4
21million to about 1.5 million? Is that Holocaust denial?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I do not agree that the reduction was arbitrary.
23I think inevitably in the immediate aftermath of the war
24there was an enormous amount of uncertainty about the
25numbers who had died. This does not have a date on it,
26but I think the 4 million is a plaque which was erected
1very shortly after the war and, as research progressed,
2then the true number of people who died in Auschwitz was
3more closely approached, so it is an arbitrary reduction.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Is the first figure, which is the figure of 4 million, in
5any way associated with the figure of 4 million that was
6propagated by the Soviet Union in the first postwar years
7for the victims in Auschwitz, in your opinion?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to say I do not know enough about Auschwitz. I am
9not an expert on Auschwitz. You had an expert on
11 Q. [Mr Irving] We will keep it in general terms. If you were told (as we
12have heard) that Dr Piper, the director of the Auschwitz
13State Museum at the time that first plaque was in
14existence, and who arranged for it to be removed and
15replaced by the second plaque, has stated that the first
16plaque was purely propaganda, would you accept that this
17is evidence of politicization of the Holocaust and the
18figures connected with it?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think, well, I would have to see Dr Piper's statement
20before I could accept that is what he said, of course. I
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I draw your attention back we -- will leave that
23subject. Can I now take you back to your book, please?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have not got your answer yet. I think
25the object of the exercise is to get the answer to the
26question, Mr Irving.
1 MR IRVING: My Lord, his answer was the now familiar one that
2he has not seen the document.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, well, he was actually going on to say
4something else. Would you like to complete it?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. Obviously, I accept that there is an element of
6propaganda in the official memorialization by the Soviet
7Union and its satellites in the period of Communism. That
8is particularly evident, for example, in the absence of
9any mention of Jews in this first plaque, whereas in the
10second one it does say mainly Jews. I think it is the
11case that in the postwar years the Soviet Union and the
12authorities in Communist Eastern Europe did want to
13minimise the element of Jewish dead amongst the ----
14 MR IRVING: As evidence of general Polish anti-semitism or?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I do not think that is true. I think it is a number
16of different things. It is not that.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] While you have your book in front of you, Professor Evans,
18will you remain on page 206 and look at the next paragraph
19briefly, which begins with the words: "A leading
20authority". I am sorry, my Lord, that I should have
21provided your Lordship with the lines I am going to refer
22to, but it is very brief.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] I will read it out: "A leading authority on this
25literature, which is Holocaust denial literature,
26Professor Deborah E. Lipstadt", that is the Second
1Defendant in this case?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] "... of Emery University, Atlanta, Georgia, consistently
4refuses to take part in public debates with the deniers on
5the ground 'to do so would give them a legitimacy and a
6stature that they in no way deserve"?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you any comment on this refusal to debate? Is it a
9position of strength or a position of weakness, do you
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think it is a position of principle.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] A position of principle?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think it is a tactical consideration, in my
14understanding of it.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it a principle that you, as an academic, would
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think, yes, I do not think that Holocaust deniers are
18academics or scholars or academically or scholarly
19respectable, and I would not take part in seminars or
20discussions with them on that basis.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] So Holocaust deniers, as you once again use this favourite
22phrase of yours, are a form of low academic life or low
23life, in fact, because most of them who have not been
24academics find themselves cast out? Is that your
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not agree with any of those statements. First of
1all, it is not a favourite phrase of mine. It is a phrase
2which I have to use because it is at the centre of this
3case, as I make no apology for that. I do not like using
4phrases like "low life" or "low form of life" and, to my
5knowledge, I have never used those phrases. The problem
6is not that they are not academic; the problem is what
7they are engaging in, in my view, is a politically
8motivated falsification of history, and that is why
9I think, on the whole, I would endorse and accept
10Professor Lipstadt's position.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] But is it not equally arguable that the use that is made
12of the Holocaust and that immense tragedy inflicted on the
13Jews during World War II has just been equally politicized
14for other purposes, whether good or bad?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think there is, obviously, a political element in a
16great deal of historical writing, if not all historical
17writing, to some measure or other, but I would distinguish
18between the historians', as it were, control of that
19through reference to the documents and through the attempt
20to arrive at an objective interpretation which is in
21accordance with the documents, on the one hand, and
22deliberate falsification and invention on the other.
23I think the Holocaust deniers belong to the latter
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you consider ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And, of course, in academic and scholarly discussions, one
1puts aside political aspects and concentrates on the
3 Q. [Mr Irving] But it is a commonly held view, even among Jewish
4academics, that the Holocaust is being abused for
5political purposes now. Are you aware of the writings of
6Norman Finglestein, for example? Do you have any opinion
7about his qualifications as an academic or as a writer?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have -- I am eagerly awaiting his book. He has written
9an article and a couple of reviews which I think give some
10foretaste, but I would not want to make a judgment on
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you, by any chance, read what he wrote in The Times
13Literary Supplement, I believe it was, in January,
14suggesting that the whole of the Holocaust propaganda
15campaign started around about the time of the 1967 June
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that both Finglestein and Peter Novic, whose book
18I have read with great interest, and Tim Cole.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you identify Peter Novic, University of ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The University of Chicago, yes, and another similar book
21by Tim Cole of the University of Bristol, I think -- are
22talking about the public presentation of the
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Are they ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- and the political ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving] --- Holocaust deniers in your book?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, they are not because they are not, they are certainly
2not denying that i happened in the terms in which
3I described it in my report. They are talking about the
4public presentation of history, as in these memorial
5plaques that you have illustrated. That, I think, is a
6different thing from the scholarly working up of history.
7None of them would fall into any of the four, or satisfy
8any of four, conditions that I have laid down for
9Holocaust denial. They do not minimise the numbers. They
10do not deny the use of gassing to kill large numbers of
11Jews. They do not deny that is systematic, and they do
12not claim that the evidence was invented or fabricated.
13They are talking about something quite different which is
14the public presentation and use which, indeed, of course,
15by its very nature is going to be subject to political
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. They are all American academics, are they?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. Tim Cole is a British academic. Finglestein, I am
19not sure, I think he is American.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Would they be able to propagate their views safely
21in this country or in France or in Germany, do you think,
22without fear of either losing their academic privileges or
23even arrest and prosecution?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I do not think that is a question
25that is really going to help in this case, if I may say
1 MR IRVING: My Lord, I am just trying to establish that
2Holocaust deniers, if I can adopt the witness's phrase, do
3not have it easy to propagate their views, and if the
4debate seems lopsided, it is because, on the one hand,
5people refused to debate and, on the other hand, the
6people are arrested and locked away.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but you had rather veered off Holocaust
8deniers to the historians who take the view that there has
9been some politicization of the Holocaust from 1967
11 MR IRVING: In that case, may I just revert very briefly to
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I mean, my answer is yes, if that helps. I mean, Dr Cole
14has not suffered at all from his book and Professor
15Novic's book is about to be published in this country.
16 MR IRVING: You have expressed words of distaste for Professor
17Faurisson who, of course, is no longer a Professor?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Where do I do this?
19 Q. [Mr Irving] When you were last standing and the witness box on
20Thursday. I mentioned his name. You said you did not
21consider him to be an academic and you ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think -- I am not sure I said that. I would have to see
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Are you aware of the damage that was inflicted on
25Professor Faurisson for holding his principles and views,
26for holding to his principles as a Holocaust denier?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am aware that he was deprived of his university post,
2most certainly, yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you turn, please, to page 57 of the bundle, the
4little bundle? I am very sorry, it is at bundle E, my
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I know.
7 MR IRVING: The global bundle. I am afraid that you may not
8have the photographs there.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I only have 55 pages, I am afraid.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So have I.
11 MR IRVING: In that case I will produce two pages to you. That
12is Professor Faurisson after he was taught a lesson for
13his principles and views. Is this the way you think
14academics should be dealt with?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Most certainly not, no.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Thank you very much. The reason I am asking that, my
17Lord, is evident because I wish to bring to the attention
18of the court the dangers that befall somebody in public
19life who is accused of being a Holocaust denier.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do it, by all means. I am not quite sure
21that I see how that advances your case here.
22 MR IRVING: Oh, very definitely, my Lord, I submit. I have
23already suggested it in connection with the Hamas and
24Hisbollah allegation; I have been exposed to very severe
25risks. In connection with being accused of being a
26Holocaust denier, I have been exposed to the risk of what
1happened to Professor Faurisson. His jaw was smashed so
2badly, it was wired together for six weeks and he had acid
3poured in his eyes, and he was a man slightly older than
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I have tried to explain to you
6earlier that all this sort of thing can be relevant to
7damage, but it has to be linked to the Defendants.
8 MR IRVING: I shall be making a submission on damages later on.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just bear in mind that that is the way I am
11 MR IRVING: As this witness did refer to Professor Faurisson in
12terms of rebuke, I thought it appropriate to show him
13photographs of what happened to people who stick to their
14principle at the other end of the scale.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think you can make me responsible for what
16happened to Professor Faurisson.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] No. Witness, you have read or your researchers have read
18very large parts of my diaries and private papers and
19lectures and speeches?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you at any time in any of those readings come across
22any evidence whatsoever that I was associated with the
23Hamas or the Hisbollah terrorist leaders or with Lewis
24Farakan, the notorious black American anti-semite?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, that was not what I was asked to do, so we did not
26read them for that purpose.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Even so, can you answer?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] We read the material in order to, well, I am trying to
3explain that my expertise may be not very good at that
4particular level, there were other expert witnesses who
5were asked to do that. I did collect information which is
6on page 174 and afterwards of my report, which is about
7your connections with Holocaust deniers, and I did find --
8I am trying to find it in my report -- connections with
9Ahmed Rami, page 198.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you tell the court what these alleged connections
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. You appeared on the same platform as him in the
13so-called Leuchter Congress, 23rd March 1991.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there any reason why I should have recognized Mr Rami,
15in your opinion?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think if one appears on a platform with other speakers,
17one knows who they are.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there any connection at all between this Mr Rami and
19the gentleman, Mr Farakan that I mentioned, or the
20Hisbollah and the Hamas?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to claim that I do not have any direct expertise on
22that. I cannot say.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you found any kind of correspondence between myself
24and Mr Rami? Has any been shown to you?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not to my recollection.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] So apart from this ----
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But, as I say, that is not what I was really looking for.
2I am really concerned with looking at connections between
3you and people whose main business is Holocaust deniers.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So the answer to the original question,
5whether you have discovered any links, as it were, is no?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Is no, that is right. That is not to say that there is
7not any but...
8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] No, but you have not come across it?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have not come across it, no. I mean, he, Rami, occupies
10about four lines of my report.
11 MR IRVING: Yes. Is there any particular reason why you
12mentioned Rami in this connection? Is he a terrorist or
13an extremist? I mean, to me, he unknown. I know nothing
14at all about him.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I find that difficult to believe since you appeared
16on the same platform as him in a meeting, a public
17meeting. He is an extremist who runs an extreme
18anti-semitic website which I have looked at.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] When you say that he appeared on the same platform, do you
20have photographs of him standing shoulder to shoulder with
21me or are you just saying that he was there one day and I
22was there the next day?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you challenge having been on the same
24platform as him?
25 MR IRVING: I want to know what he means by this, my Lord.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I am asking am asking you because you
1have to put your case, Mr Irving. I mentioned that on
2Thursday. Is it your case that you have never appeared on
3a platform with Mr Rami?
4 MR IRVING: Never knowingly appeared.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Never?
6 MR IRVING: If I can put it like that, my Lord.
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I footnote video tape 201.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Never knowingly appeared? I see.
9 MR IRVING: Well, quite simply, because when is this video
10taped alleged to have been?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] 23rd March 1991.
12 MR IRVING: 1991. So it is nine years ago and this is somebody
13who has, apparently, stood near me on a platform and this
14is good as the connection gets?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, you were both speakers. As I say, this is not a
16very important part of my report; it only occupies a few
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you turn to page 37 of your report, please? We are
19now moving on, my Lord. Paragraph 244. You talk about
20the unreliability of Hitler's former aids as a source?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] And, effectively, my gullibility in falling for everything
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I would not accuse you of being gullible, Mr Irving.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] My lack of critical nous, shall we say, in accepting what
26Hitler's Adjutants and secretaries and people have told me
1-- is that the burden of that paragraph 244?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Critical intention, I think.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you accept, however, that on numerous occasions I have
4persuaded Hitler's private staff and the Adjutants and
5their juniors to reveal to me matters which were against
6their interest, or against the interest of Adolf Hitler
7which is probably more significant? Do you accept this is
8true? Do you remember from The War Path where Hitler's
9private secretary, Krista Schroeder, describes to me on
10the night of the long knives, June 30th 1934, when they
11returned to the Chancellery afterwards Hitler vanished and
12had a shower?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I remember that.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you remember what Hitler said to her when he
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Very vaguely. You would have to remind me of the exact
18 Q. [Mr Irving] "So Fraulein Schroeder, now I have had a shower and I feel
19as clean as a new born babe"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you feel that speaks highly for Adolf Hitler, that he
22murders his closest compatriots and has a shower and
23washes himself clean?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I do not. But you do say in a document which I quote
25on page 604 that, once the former members of Hitler's
26staff, once you had won their confidence I think you mean,
1they thought well now at last they were doing their chief
2a service. So it seem to be your view that you persuade
3them that they were doing Hitler a service by talking to
5 Q. [Mr Irving] I think the sense is that they were doing history a
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is not what you said.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] They were telling the story -- what are the exact words
9that I used?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The exact words were, and I think you have reversed the
11sense here a bit, once they had won your confidence --
12I think you mean once you had won their confidence -- and
13they knew you were not going to go and report them to the
14State Prosecutor, they trusted you and they thought well,
15now at last they were doing their chief a service.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. How would they be doing their chief a service if
17they told me details of how Hitler had ordered the
18liquidation of the inmates of a concentration camp?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is not what Krista Schroeder said, was it, to you?
20 Q. [Mr Irving] I am giving specific examples now. You said that
21I persuaded these people to talk, but that I then fell for
22them, so to speak, and that I did not manage to use my
23methods, my oily greasy methods, shall I put it like, in
24fact to get from them information against their self-
25interest which is what I contend I did.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Oily and greasy are not my words.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] They are words I put in -- I oiled these remarks out of
2them, shall I put it like that? If I put this one example
3to you, that I persuaded an SS officer who was on Hitler's
4staff to describe to me the meeting between Hitler and
5Himmler in April 1945, where Hitler gave the order to
6liquidate all the inmates of Buchenwald if they could not
7be evacuated in time, do you remember that episode?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I do.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Was that in any way -- did it reflect well on Adolf
10Hitler, do you think?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, it certainly did not, but obviously there are some
12places in which they do reveal things, at which some of
13them reveal things, which are not ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving] I will give you only one further example because I do not
15wish to test his Lordship's patience but it is important
16here because I am accused of having exonerated Hitler and
17fallen for the Adjutants' wiles. You are familiar with
18the colour photographs that are in some of my books of
19Adolf Hitler's staff, are you?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you accept that these photographs were taken by
22Hitler's film cameraman whose name was Walter Frentz?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] He described to me, did he not, a visit to the Eastern
25Front with Heinrich Himmler in August 1941 where they
26witnessed a mass shooting outside Minsk, to which shooting
1you also refer of course, do you not?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] This man Walter Frentz was present. Are you aware that he
4described to me in great deal at 2 o'clock one morning the
5whole episode, including how Himmler told him to take
6photographs of the shootings, and other very vivid
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Was that in any way in his own interest to tell me that
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] We are moving slightly away here. What we are talking
12about, of course, is their attitudes to, or what they
13report of, Hitler and Hitler's views, and in that case it
14really does not apply to that.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] We will move on to Hitler's views in this connection in a
16minute, but will you just answer my question? If Walter
17Frentz told me this story, how he was with Himmler and
18witnessed a mass shooting, and took photographs of it, did
19that in any way reflect well on either himself, the
20witness, or on Adolf Hitler, for that matter?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would think no, but then he might have thought something
23 Q. [Mr Irving] If I now tell you that Frentz took photographs back to
24Hitler's headquarters and showed them to Hitler's Chief
25Adjutant, and the Chief Adjutant said, "If you know what
26is good for you, you will destroy these photographs,
1Mr Frentz", is this a significant contribution to a
2historical debate which I, with my methods, obtained, do
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The answer is, if that is the case, then yes. I am not
5denying, Mr Irving, that your interviews with Hitler's
6former staff have contributed in some ways to historical
7knowledge, not at all.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] So your judgment against me in that paragraph is
9overhasty, would you agree?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I do not agree. I think, taken as a whole, your
11interviews with Hitler's staff, as I show in a chapter of
12the report, are uncritical, and in some cases also involve
13elements of falsification of what they actually said, or
14of the nature of their sources that you used.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] I will come to those particular episodes later on, but in
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] This is a general statement which is a conclusion drawn
18from the detailed cases that I look at later on in the
20 Q. [Mr Irving] You have said that I used these statements only in the
21service of their chief, so to speak, and I did not put in
22material from the Adjutants or the secretaries which was
23unfavourable, and that I was uncritical in my assessment
24of these sources, and I have given you three episodes
25where quite clearly I persuaded members of Hitler's staff
26to reveal from their innermost memory things that they
1probably told nobody else.
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Where do I say the things that you say I say?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think the word "always" is to be
4found, Mr Irving. I think that is the difference between
6 MR IRVING: That is why I suggested that the phrase overhasty
7was probably justified, and overhastily rushed a judgment
8on me, which is not borne out by all the evidence my Lord.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The evidence I think I am hearing from
10Professor Evans is that usually -- that may be an under
11statement -- you are portraying these Adjutants as having
12told you things which are in Hitler's favour, but
13sometimes not. Is that a broad summary?
14 MR IRVING: To use one of Mr Rampton's favourite phrases,
15I would say "so what"? Quite clearly, if these Adjutants
16have sat for many hours talking to me, I have used all the
17information they have given me, and some of it has been in
18favour and some of it has not. What I have not done, and
19this is my question now to the witness, did I make
20appropriate use of the information that I obtained from
21these various witnesses, in your opinion?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It depends what you mean by "appropriate".
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Did I make appropriate use? In other words, did I rely on
24them solely, shall we say, for important episodes of
25history when I could not find any documentary
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, they form an important part of your case that Hitler
2did not know about the extermination of the Jews, at least
3before the autumn of 1943, because what you argue about
4the Adjutants is that they all say that Hitler never
5actually discussed the extermination of the Jews with
6them, and in the sense that, if you look at their
7statements carefully, and I detail some of these later on
8in the report, you will see that they do not infer from
9the fact that this was not discussed as they claim, the
10fact that Hitler did not know about it. That is your
11inference. Indeed, a number of them explicitly stated
12that they were pretty sure that Hitler did know.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] There is a typical example of that, Albert Speer. Did
14Albert Speer say to me it was never discussed in front of
15him, but did he then go on to say that in his opinion
16Hitler must have known, roughly?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] As I recall, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that not an illogical kind of position for an
19intelligent man like Speer to adopt, that it was never
20discussed but somebody must have known? If it was never
21discussed, how could he guess?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] As I recall, Speer argued at some length, and there is a
23degree of self-exculpation here, I think, in Speer, that
24Hitler simply did not want this to be talked about in his
26 Q. [Mr Irving] My final question on this particular angle is this. When
1you have read, as you or your researchers have, my
2interview notes on all these ladies and gentleman on
3Hitler's private staff, did I conceal anything detrimental
4that they told me? In other words, the Walter Frentz
5episode, the shootings at Minsk, Hitler's remark to Krista
6Schroeder, "now I have had a shower and I feel as clean as
7a new born babe", did I conceal that or did I properly use
8it in my books?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You did not conceal either of those two things, no.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] So what I found I used?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not in every case. There is an example in detail later on
12which we can discuss.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you tell us what that example is from memory?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not from memory, I am afraid.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Perhaps we can wait until we get to it. There is
16one further question. Has any other writer apart from me
17got as close to these members of Hitler's private staff?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I think that is quite right.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] So, if I had not done it, then a body of information would
20have been lost for the world of academics and scholars?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] We have discussed this before. I do not dispute the fact
22that you have obtained a great deal of material, not just
23interview material but also documentary material, which
24other historians have not obtained.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Were any of these Adjutants interrogated at Nuremberg?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There is an awful lot of them, there is about 25 of them.
1I am sure you know more than I do about their
2interrogations at Nuremberg. Some of them of course were
3put on trial or were witnesses in subsequent trials.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Very few of them.
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Karl Wolff is the obvious one.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not right that Karl Wolff was not put on trial until
7the 60s because a secret deal had been reached between him
8and the Americans?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not know about the secret deal but he was not put on
10trial until 1964, I think.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you not heard of Operation Crossword in which Karl
12Wolff was engaged in Italy at the end of the war, his
13negotiations with the OSS?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You would have to provide me with documentary evidence for
15a deal, I think.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] I am going to go on to page 38, my Lord. Now we are
17dealing with the Hitler's diaries forgeries, paragraph
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you accept that once again I came into early possession
21of unusual materials? In this case they turned out to be
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. Were these the materials which you purchased in
24October 1982 and were intending to sell to McMillans?
25 Q. [Mr Irving] What is your evidence for the word "purchased"?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] This is in audio cassette 75, where you said you bought
1them from the forger and then you recognized them as
2forgeries after examining them.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, can I interrupt and make this
4enquiry of you, really? . I realize that Professor Evans
5refers to the Hitler diaries in his report. I am just
6wondering what relevance they have to the issues in this
7action. Can you help me? I am sorry to interrupt you but
8are obviously starting on a fresh point.
9 MR IRVING: If I am familiar with Professor Evans' arguments of
10having flipflopped, changed my position on them, and ipso
11facto being unserious, is that right, Professor Evans?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not use the word "unserious", but I derive from
13Robert Harris's book, which seems to me to be a reliable
14book, written I think partly in co-operation with you,
15certainly with use of materials you supplied to him, the
16fact that having declared that the diaries, quite rightly,
17were forgeries, you then subsequently declared that they
18were genuine. If you tell me that that is not true, of
19course I would have to accept it.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us see where we are going with this.
21This is not, I do not think, any part of the pleaded
22case. Mr Rampton, that is right, is it not?
23 MR RAMPTON: That is right, my Lord.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are in the difficult position, Mr Irving,
25because here is the principal expert witness for the
26Defendants making this criticism of you and it is a
1serious criticism, but it is not one that in the end plays
2any part in the Defendants case.
3 MR IRVING: I read your Lordship's mind as being that you will
4pay no attention to this. In that case I will move on.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not.
6 MR IRVING: In the next paragraph 247 you mention Gerhardt
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Is he one of the historians whose views you accept?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] On what?
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Is he an eminent historian? He is not a Holocaust denier,
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He is an eminent historian.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] In fact, he is now retired and his chair is occupied by
15Christopher Browning, is it not?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is the case, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] I am going to be looking at Professor Jackeln, my Lord,
18Professor Aberhard Jackeln, who is a historian whose name
19will come up I think more than once over the next few
20days. He played a part in the Hitler diaries. I am not
21going to look at the Hitler diaries as such but I am going
22to ask questions which I think have relevance to
23establishing the reliability of Professor Jackeln. Is it
24right that Professor Aberhard Jackeln very early on came
25into possession of one of the diaries, the 1935 Hitler
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] From what I remember of Mr Harris's book, which is the
2source of my information, yes. That is to say, I do not
3rely on Professor Jackeln in my report.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Really I am trying through you to find out what we know
5about Professor Jackeln as far as reliability goes, as far
6as his credentials go.
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. It does not really play a role in my report. That
8is to say, I am not writing about Professor Jackeln's
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you write that Jackeln authenticated some of the
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I did not, no. It is my understanding from Mr Harris's
13book that he had doubts about him. Of course I am aware
14of the fact that Professor Jackeln did include some forged
15material in a book that he edited of Hitler's writings.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] You are not familiar with the fact that he authenticated
17the 1935 Hitler diary on behalf of a Stuttgart
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not, but if that is in Mr Harris's book ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving] You mentioned the other materials. He believed that a
21very large number of poems and handwritings apparently by
22Hitler were genuine, is that correct?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We seem to be back on the Hitler diaries. I
24thought we had agreed ----
25 MR IRVING: No we are now off that. We are now on Jackeln,
26very firmly on Jackeln, my Lord.
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is correct.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Did he publish these in a semi-official volume called
3Hitler's Entire Manuscripts?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed he did.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Did it take him a substantial length of time to confess
6that these were from the same source, the forger Konrad
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If you tell me it did, then yes. He certainly in the end
9I think recognized that they were forgeries.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] In fact he wrote a report, did he not, in the Journal of
11Contemporary History in which he admitted that 4 per cent
12of that volume was fake, only 4 per cent? Is that
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I do not recall it but I will accept your word for
16 Q. [Mr Irving] In your little bundle of documents which I gave you this
17morning, would you just turn rapidly to page 41, which is
18a photograph of a train?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] The large endless train of wagons with people stuffed in
21like cattle, is it not?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They do not appear to be ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Several hundred people to each coal wagon?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would not say like cattle. They do not appear to be
25grossly overcrowded. They are full.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware Professor Jackeln used this photograph as an
1illustration for Rumanian Jews being shipped to the gas
2chambers at Auschwitz?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] On a television programme. Can you confirm that that is
5fact Hamburg railway Station after the war?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Very difficult to say.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] If I tell that the rubber stamp on the back of the
8original photograph says Hamburg -- it is in the Hamburg
9Railway Station archives now, in their picture archives.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Right.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] What would your opinion be of a historian who uses
12photographs in that manner, photographs of a postwar
13scene, and says that it is a photograph of Jews being
14shipped off to Auschwitz?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am a bit bewildered by this, Mr Irving.
16You said "so what?" to me not very long, "so what?" to
17you. Why does whether Professor Jackeln mistook Hamburg
18Railway Station for a convoy taking Romanian Jews to a
19concentration camp matter? It is your reliability, not
20Professor Jackeln's that is in question.
21 MR IRVING: If Jackeln's words are going to be used against me,
22as they will be, in expert reports, then I am entitled, in
23my view, to put to the court the qualifications that
24Professor Jackeln has.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Again, you are in the difficulty that
26Professor Evans has relied on other historians in his
1report, but in the end it must be Professor Evans' view,
2whether I accept it or not, that counts.
3 MR IRVING: Yes.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not actually going to stop you, but
5I really do not think at the moment, until we get to a
6point where Professor Evans says, "Jackeln says this, ergo
7it must be right", that this is really helpful. There is
8an awful lot of material to be covered in Professor Evans'
9report, but we have not really begun to grapple with it
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me answer the question. Of course, what I think of
12him depends in this instance on whether he knew that that
13was a picture of Germans in Hamburg on a shopping trip to
14the Ruhr in 1946 and then deliberately presented it, and
15falsely presented it, as Rumanian Jews being shipped off
16to Auschwitz, or whether it was a genuine mistake. You
17yourself have said in the course of this trial that
18historians make many errors, and that one wants to correct
19them, and one attempts to do so. You pointed out an error
20in your own 1991 edition of Hitler's War, the absence of
21your name on the title page, so we all make mistakes.
22There is a distinction which I drew on Thursday, which I
23would hold to, between, as it were, genuine mistakes and
24errors, which unfortunately historians are all prone to,
25on the one hand, and deliberate falsification on the
1 MR IRVING: I have to let you get away with that, because I am
2not allowed now to ask any further questions about the
3photograph or about ----
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did say I was not stopping you, but I was
5telling you that at the moment I do not find it very
6helpful. Do not say you are not allowed to; you are
8 MR IRVING: Is Professor Jackeln a recognized authority on
9Hitler and the Holocaust? Has he written books and
10articles about it?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, he has written books and articles about Hitler in
12particular, Hitler's views.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Does it diminish him in your esteem that he has fallen
14repeatedly for forgeries produced by a notorious forger,
15that he has he published them, that he did not willingly
16confess that they were forgeries or where they came from,
17and that he has relied on a dubious photograph?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, you mentioned one instance in which he fell for
19material from a notorious forger. If you can show me
20there are many others, then I will accept the word
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you agree that, in dealing with your treatment of the
23Hitler diaries, you accused me of liking the Hitler
24diaries and believing they were genuine because they gave
25a favourable impression of Hitler?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Again, I am following Mr Harris there. Let me quote him
1in explaining why you endorsed them at a late stage,
2"Finally there was the fact that the diaries did not
3contain any evidence to suggest that Hitler was aware of
4the Holocaust". Really I am following Mr Harris's
6 Q. [Mr Irving] On what basis do you say ----
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That was one of a number of reasons which he puts forward
8for your having endorsed them at a late stage.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] On what basis do you say that these fake diaries showed
10Hitler ordered a stop to the Reichskristallnacht?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I did say quite a long time ago
12that I am not going to pay any attention to the Hitler
13diaries because it is not any part of the Defendants'
14case. Really these questions are directly focused on the
15Hitler diaries, so I do now say you must move on.
16 MR IRVING: In paragraph 2.4.9, lines 5 and 6, there is a
17sentence there beginning, "If an obvious forgery like the
18Hitler diaries gives credence to my views, I will use
19it". Is that not a reflection -- am I allowed to say
20that, my Lord?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have already told you in the clearest
22possible way that I am not going to place any reliance in
23forming my judgment on what did or did not happen in the
24case of the Hitler diaries, so questions about it can only
25do you harm.
26 MR IRVING: Three lines from the bottom of that page 40 you
1accuse me of rendering my footnotes deliberately opaque.
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you think of any reason why a researcher or writer who
4has spent a lot of his private funds, who is not a tenured
5professor, who is entirely reliant on his professional
6income, obtaining access to sources, might wish to leave
7his footnotes opaque?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. Either in the case of your extremely vague
9references to the author Ingrid Weckert in your account of
10the Reichskristallnacht, because that source is
11discreditable, because she is an anti-semitic politically
12motivated falsifier of history upon whom you rely in part
13of your account ----
14 MR IRVING: Do you consider that anti-semitic ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let him finish his answer and then ask you
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Or that the sources do in fact, if anybody goes to the
18immense trouble of tracking them down as in the instance
19we already mentioned on Thursday, the evidence of the
20policeman Hoffmann at the 1924 trial of Hitler, if that
21source in fact contains things which you do not want to
22appear and you do not want people to know about. So it is
23a kind of judgment call on your part that you need to give
24a source, but you do not want people to find out too
25easily what is there.
26 MR IRVING: Can you think of no innocent explanation why the
1aforementioned author might leave his sources opaque?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with the kind of scholar and academic who
4will pretend that he has done the research, who will
5pretend that he too has been to Canberra and Ottowa and
6Washington and Moscow, he will quite the file and he will
7quote the document number and even the page number in that
8file to give the impression that he has been there and
9done the work?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Give me an example.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] I am just asking you if are familiar with that kind of
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I cannot think of any examples. Try and give me one.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that legitimate, I really do not know as a
15matter of a historian's proper approach? If you have seen
16some other historian give a reference for a
17particular proposition as being File X in the Washington
18archive or wherever, is it then illegitimate for the next
19historian simply to cite that as being the authority
20without actually going to the Washington archive and
21looking for himself?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, it is normal, my Lord, to say file so and so in the
23archive as cited in such and such a book. If you simply
24say file so and so in the archive, that does suggest you
25have been there. It is what I would call slightly sharp
1 MR IRVING: If, for example, you found in a book by David
2Irving on Winston Churchill unusual sources and you were
3an academic and a scholar, if you did not want to be
4associated with him, would there be a temptation just to
5use that file in the French National Archives or whatever
6it is and pretend you had seen it yourself, but not of
7course that you had it from David Irving's book? Would
8there be that temptation?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would not be tempted. I can only answer for myself.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] You would not be tempted to use the source?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would want to go, if that was the work I was doing, to
12the archive and check the source. I would not take it on
13trust as it appears in your work.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Even if you could go to some archives like the Institute
15of History where I did in the meantime deposit all the
16records so that you could check it out? Do you appreciate
17that there might be an innocent reason on the basis of
18what I have said, on the basis of my questions, why an
19author might sometimes wish to make it slightly less easy
20for a crooked scholar to steal his brain work?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You would have to show that there were crooked scholars
22around who are all desperate to steal your brain work.
23I do not believe that that is the case, so I do not really
24accept that there are innocent reasons. It is quite
25straightforward. If you cite an original or any source,
26if you use a source in your work, you footnote it in order
1to enable other historians to go and find it and you are
2as helpful as possible to them. It is part of the kind of
3checks and controls which historians have, and this
4curious way we have to enable other people to challenge
5our own work and to falsify it and say that we are wrong.
6It is part of what I would call being an objective
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you agree that there are two kinds of books? There are
9the super academic works as submitted for PhDs or for some
10other kind of academic qualifications where everything has
11to be rigorously footnoted according to a standard scheme,
12and books which are sold in Books Etc. and Waterstones
13where books have to fit in within a reasonable size,
14number of pages, and that, if you put all the footnotes in
15to that scheme, you are going to end up with an
16uncommercial book. Do you agree with that proposition?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not really, no. I think there is a large kind of scale of
18books, or a spectrum of books, from the academic PhD
19theses which is not really publishable as a book in many
20cases and has to be rewritten, where everything has to be
21all the Is dotted and all the Ts crossed all the way down
22to very general non-fiction books which do not have any
23footnotes in at all and everything in between. So I think
24there is a very wide spectrum. In respect of your works,
25Mr Irving, Hitler's War is over 800 pages long. It is a
26very long book, and the claim that you make for it is that
1it is based on an enormous mass of research and there are
2a lot of footnotes in it. It does give the appearance, as
3your other books do, of being a scholarly work. You make
4a great deal of the fact that you use a large number of
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Professor Evans, when your researchers were researching in
7my files at the Institute of History in Munich, did they
8come across a thick file there which was about 1,000 pages
9long, consisting of the original annotated footnotes of
10Hitler's War which were referenced by number to every
11single sentence in that book?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] It was not part of the published corpus, it was part of
14the original manuscript, but it was chopped out because of
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, we did not see that.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen isolated pages of that in my discovery in so
18far as it related to episodes which were of interest, like
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not, to be honest, recall, but that does not mean to
21say that we have not seen them.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] You said that my footnotes are opaque because they do not
23always give the page reference. Do you agree that, on a
24page which we are going to come across in the course of
25this morning, of your own expert report, you put a
26footnote in just saying "see van Pelt's report", see
1expert report by Robert van Pelt, and that expert report
2is about 769 pages long, is it not?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] That is not an opaque footnote?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, because, when one says see this or see that, that
6means that you are not relying on that for what you say.
7It is simply a further reference directing the reader, if
8the reader wants to gain further information about that
9particular topic, to go there. If I were relying on
10Professor van Pelt's report for anything I say in my own,
11which I am not, then I would footnote it as precisely as
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why are you not?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Why am I not relying on Professor van Pelt?
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Is there a reason?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, his report is about something different from mine
17and I thought I should reach my own conclusions on the
18basis of my own work, but I do cross-reference other
19expert reports in so far as I think it is useful.
20 MR IRVING: It is a strange kind of cross-reference that just
21says "See expert report" by somebody.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, can you point me to the page?
23 Q. [Mr Irving] We will come to it later on. I am just looking for it and
24I do not want to hold up the court. If you would you go
25now to page 41 of the expert report, please, paragraph
26251? Can I ask that you be given bundle H1(i), please, so
1we can see what you have omitted from the quotations? It
2is a passage where you say: "They are not lies, what I
3have published, they are true. At any rate, the truth as
4I perceive it". Then you omit bits.
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Where is this -- yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] That should be H1(i) at page 94?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Page 94. Yes.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whereabouts on the page, bottom of the page,
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is near the bottom of the page.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
12 MR IRVING: Do you not admit a passage there about how it gets
13far more expensive the closer you approximate towards the
14truth, that it is quite easy to find out 90 per cent of
15the truth, and then it gets a bit more expensive to get 95
16per cent of the truth, and to get absolute truth is
17impossible, but it gets more and more and more expensive?
18That is roughly the sense of it. I do not have it in
19front of me, but I am familiar with the speech.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is where you say it is a shame that we lost the
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. "They are not out lies, what I have published, they
23are true, at any rate, the truth as I perceive it"?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Then you left out the explanatory bit?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. "Even the most erudite and hard working historian", I
1say, "is never going to obtain 100 per cent truth. He is
2only going to approximate it", and that, I think, gives
3the sense of what you are saying. I come back to the
4point, I echo the point that you have made about your own
5work, this report is already 740 pages long, and in this
6quotation, I think I give the essence of what you are
8 Moreover, of course, I do put the ellipse in,
9three dots, to tell the reader that I am leaving something
10out there so the reader can do, as you have done, go back
11and cheek the speech and see if I have left anything out
12that I should not have left out. That is not the case in
13quite a number of the cases in which you abbreviate
14quotations from the original sources, as I have shown in
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But it is fair to say Mr Irving does go on
18really to say he is one of those writers who does try to
19get the extra 10 per cent and get 100 per cent accuracy?
20I think that is the burden of the passage as a whole.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, indeed, yes.
22 MR IRVING: Unfortunately, not everyone has our patience to go
23and look up the original document to see what has been
24replaced by the three dots. There is another passage,
25while you still have that H1 in front of you, please, can
26I ask you to go to page 106 of H1(i)? This has a rather
1more important kind of material that has been left out of
2the indented paragraph?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] In the middle of page 41 of the expert report, my Lord.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have it.
6 MR IRVING: Your Lordship will see that the witness has omitted
7all the reference to the organized campaign of window
8smashing and so on that went on around this country to
9persuade Waterstones not to stock my books and other
10booksellers. He then goes on to mock me for suggesting
11that there is a campaign, having cut out the material
12relating to it out of the quotation.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry, where do I mock you?
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 42 at 254: "Irving does not appear to believe that
15other historians can rise to the challenge; rather he
16believes that there is an international campaign organized
17by the Jewish community in many countries to stop him from
18speaking and selling his books"?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, that is my sense of what you believe. I do not see
20anything mocking in that. I am trying to convey your own
21point of view there. Once again, of course, in this
22passage that you mention, there are ellipses to denote
23that I have omitted some material, and really what I am
24trying to do here is to describe your view of history.
25I am not really concerned with all the details that you
26give here about the campaign which you allege is being
1conducted against your work. That is not what I am
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Here you go on about the campaign I allege has been
4conducted against my work, but you have deprived his
5Lordship of knowing details of what that campaign is; the
6fact that there was an organized campaign of window
7smashing in the big book stores to persuade them not to
8stock my books.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] How is that relevant to my report? I really do not see
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Because you say (as you have just said) that I allege
12there is a campaign and you say in paragraph 2.5.4 that
13I seem to believe that there is a campaign to stop me
14selling my books, and yet you have cut out of that
15quotation concrete evidence of the campaign that has been
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But it is not my concern in this report to deal with the
18campaign. I have given your view here that there is a
19campaign, and I think in the context of a report which is
20about your treatment of historical subjects, that that is
21enough. If I went, if I had gone in this report into
22every issue like that, it would have been enormously long
23and I really do not think that is relevant to what was
24asked to do.
25 MR RAMPTON: I should intervene. Mr Irving actually misread
26the report. It is only so that it gets on the
1transcript. The report actually did not say "he seems to
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: "He believes".
4 MR RAMPTON: It says "he believes".
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did notice that.
6 MR IRVING: If had omitted any reference to book burning from a
7passage about the Nazi activities in 1933, that would have
8been duplicitous, would it not?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It depends what you are trying to write about the Nazi
10activities in 1933.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] They were suppressing books that they disapproved of.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If you are writing a dissertation about the Nazi policy
13towards the Civil Service or the Nazi policy towards the
14Bau(?) in 1933, then I do not think book burning would
15necessarily have been a relevant consideration.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] If I had omitted the book burning in Berlin in March 1933
17from my Goebbels' biography, then this would have been
18duplicitous, would it not, and if I had just said, "Well,
19that did not really belong"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is certainly true since Goebbels was centrally
21concerned with it.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] If I had omitted the window smashing, which is very
23apposite, from the Kristallnacht, that would also have
24been duplicitous, would it not?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Absolutely, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] So why is it not duplicitous that you omitted that passage
1from that passage you quoted?
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I understand your point, but the fact is in
3paragraph 254 Professor Evans does refer to your belief
4that there is an international campaign to prevent you
5from speaking and selling your books. So he is not
6actually concealing it, is he, in his report? Anyway,
7I understand the point, but let us go on to the next
9 MR IRVING: Many paranoid people have beliefs which are not
10supported by evidence, my Lord, but if there is a campaign
11of window smashing which is in the discovery, which is in
12the documents before the court, the witness should not
13have cut it out of the part that he quotes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I understand that is the criticism you make
15of him, yes.
16 MR IRVING: That is my submission. That I regard as earning
17all the adjectives that have been heaped on me by this
19 (To the witness): In that same paragraph, 254,
20we are back to your report, Professor. You say: "Irving
21does not appear to believe that other historians can rise
22to this challenge, rather he believes there is an
23international campaign ordered by the 'Jewish community
24(our traditional enemies)'"?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] What entitles you to equate those two as though I had said
1that the traditional enemies of the truth or free speech
2are the Jewish community?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, on your website you list, you have a section where
4you list the traditional enemies of free speech.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Which includes the Jewish community leaders, yes.
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Nearly all of them. I think there is only one
7organization there which is not a Jewish organization.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] But you put the words "Jewish community" in quotation
9marks as though you are taking it out of some document of
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I did not want to imply that there was a Jewish community
12in that sense. That is why I put it in inverted commas.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] You refer quite correctly to my website where I have a
14menu of traditional enemies of free speech, some of whom
15are specific organizations which are Jewish in character?
16That is correct?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Nearly all of whom -- all apart from one.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you got the reference for this either in
19your own report or in the website file because I would
20quite like to see it if the point is being taken. It is
22 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is page 168 of my report, my Lord, where I detail a
24number of cases where Mr Irving has equated -- I quote
25here a speech in 1992: "'Our old traditional enemies ...
26(are) the great international merchant banks are
1controlled by people who are no friends of yours and
2mine', who were 'annoyed' friend by" ----
3 MR IRVING: What paragraph is that?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] 168, paragraph 50.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there an ellipsis in the middle of that?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you please look at the document and see the four
8sentences, three fullstops, four semi-colons and 86 words
9that those three dots represent?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Could you direct me to ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving] And see if that is a genuine quote?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- the document, please?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That is fair.
14 MR IRVING: That is the document, I am very familiar with that
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Could you direct me to it, please?
17 MR IRVING: This is highly illuminative and illustrative of
18this witness's methods.
19 MR RAMPTON: I think it is the Clarendon Club. I think your
20Lordship has probably already seen that, in fact.
21Unfortunately, mine is not here.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: D2(ii).
23 MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is K4, tab 5, Clarendon Club.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure this is actually going to be
25the answer to the question, but that may be wrong.
26 MR IRVING: The question is what do those three dots represent?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] K4?
2 MR RAMPTON: K4, tab 5.
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, 5, I have that.
4 MR RAMPTON: This is the Clarendon Club in September 1992 which
5I think is the reference we have here?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] "Our old traditional enemies".
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Bottom of page 3 of 13.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. Right, shall I read that out, if you would not
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
11 MR IRVING: My first question is ----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] May I read that out then?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is just going to read it first and then
14ask the question.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is about Andrew Neil, the Editor of the Sunday Times,
16and the Goebbels' diaries which he was publishing in your
17-- from you, and that he had come under pressure "'from
18our traditional enemies, pressure not just from the
19advertising industry, pressure not just from the
20self-appointed, ugly, greasy nasty, perverted
21representatives of that community, he came under pressure
22from the international community too because the Sunday
23Times, like many other newspapers, needs international
24capital to survive and the international capital is
25provided by the great international merchant banks, and
26the great international banks are controlled by people who
1are no friends of yours and mine'".
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That appears to be Andrew Neil speaking.
3 MR IRVING: What I am looking at is what those three dots
4represent which is not just ----
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Pause a moment. We will get to that in a
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I take that to be Mr Irving's paraphrase and version and
8gloss on what Mr Neil was saying.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So the answer is yes, but it is a gloss?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] A very heavy gloss, my Lord, I think, and it goes on to
11say, "And Andrew Neil found that these 60 foot long
12posters had annoyed these people, and they put immense
13pressure on him, and we know this because from all over
14the world I have been getting press clippings", and so on
15and so forth.
16 MR IRVING: Where do the three dots end and the sentence
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] "'... are the great international'" -- "our old
19traditional enemies are", it is three lines up from the
20bottom of page 3 and the sentence resumes four lines down
21from the top of page 4, so that is, five lines are omitted
23 Q. [Mr Irving] My point is, my Lord, that when you see three dots in the
24middle of a sentence like that, you are entitled to assume
25that a few words have been left out of a sentence, not
26that two words have been taken from one sentence and then
1sentences later they have been glued on to.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think the point, and bear in mind we
3are not really concerned with your criticisms of Professor
4Evans, rather the other way round, but the point is
5whether anything has been left out that materially affects
6what is quoted. It seems to me that in this particular
7instance what has been left out by Professor Evans really
8makes no difference. Indeed, in many ways he might have
9made his point more strongly if he had put in what he had
10left out, the reference to "the self-appointed, ugly,
11greasy, nasty, perverted representatives of that
13 MR IRVING: I agree, my Lord, but my point is that if I had
14adopted that kind of abbreviation in a paragraph, and I
15had cut out three or four sentences, full stops,
16semi-colons and 86 words and replaced them by three dots,
17it would have been completely reprehensible and it would
18have been rightly pounced on by all the witnesses in this
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would not have thought it was reprehensible
21unless it did some injustice to what remains quoted.
22 MR IRVING: If I can put it another way? If I were an editor
23in a reputable publishing house and I caught one of my
24authors doing that, then I would sit on him like a tonne
25of bricks and say, "You cannot do this".
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, let us move on.
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. If I can just say, my Lord, the point that I make
2repeatedly in my report is that the three dots, as it
3were, are missing from Mr Irving's manipulation of
4quotations. He does not ----
5 MR IRVING: Have you found one instance where I have not
6replaced missing materials with the appropriate ellipses,
7I ask you, Professor.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Plenty, yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] And you have referred to them actually in your report?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] We shall take that when we come. Can you give one example
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] For example, in your -- yes, from memory, your account of
14the discussions between Admiral Horthy and Hitler and
15Ribbentrop in 1943, when you actually mix up, when you
16transpose a phrase from Hitler from one day to the other
17in order to make him look better without any indication
18that you have actually done this.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] This is totally different from the question I asked you.
20Have you found one instance where I left words or a
21passage out of a document and did not replace it with
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Exactly, then that is exactly my answer.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] No.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am afraid it is, Mr Irving. Shall we turn to the
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Please do, yes.
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- in question?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is around page 440. I think it is 444,
4but I may be wrong.
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The point here is that you transpose the sentence
7 MR IRVING: We are not talking about transposition here.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, what we are doing is that you leave out the entire
9gap, the entire enormous passages, between the discussions
10of 16th and discussions of 17th of April 1943, and
12 Q. [Mr Irving] I think you are deliberately obscuring the issue. This is
13not the answer to my question.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am sorry, I am not deliberately obscuring ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, let him give it and then you can, of
16course, make the point that it is not an answer to the
17question. Sorry, Professor Evans, carry on.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Here is your -- you simply go straight on, what you said,
19"'They can hardly be murdered or otherwise eliminated',
20he protested. Hitler reassured him there is no need for
22 MR IRVING: Are you suggesting I left material out of that
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That implied, that implies, that there was no gap at all
25between these two sentences.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] You know as well as I do, Professor, what the etiquette
1for use of ellipses is. Is that correct?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] That is not an appropriate place for the insertion of
4ellipses. One has not left material out.
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You have taken a Hitler statement from one day and
6transposed it to another.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] We are not talking about transposition.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You have an left enormous amount of material out there and
9given a completely misleading impression of the
10discussions which took place.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Professor, would you accept that if you quote one sentence
12from a report, by definition, you are leaving out the
13whole of the rest of the report, and you do not replace
14the rest of the report with ellipses, is that correct?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It depends how you do it. I mean, for example, I could
16have done in my report, instead of having and indented
17quote with ellipses in, I could have had a number of
18separate quotes as you do here, separated by your own or
19my own commentary, but the effect is the same.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] In the case instanced here it would not have worked, would
21it, because you said "the merchant banks ..." and then you
22go on using the verb of another sentence.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I do not think that what I have left out, had it been
24put in, would have given what you said, another
25impression, a different meaning.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Why do you say that I equate the traditional enemies of
1free speech with the "Jewish community", in quotation
2marks, when it is quite plain from everything that I have
3written that they are part of the bundle of people who try
4to suppress free speech, either by refusing to debate, or
5by smashing windows, or by putting pressure on publishers,
6or by inserting filters in the Internet or whatever?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have already given my answer to that, the fact that on
8your website your list of the traditional enemies of free
9speech includes ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Is entirely Jewish, is entirely Jewish community, is it?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] 90 per cent, I think.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wish we could find it because, if Professor
13Evans is right, it is an answer to the question and it is
14quite an illuminating answer.
15 MR IRVING: I agree, it is. Would you agree that the
16Australian Government is one of the people listed on that
17pull down menu?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would have to see the list.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you agree that Cyber Patrol which is a filtering
20system for the Internet Surf Watch?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Until and until we find it, Mr Irving, this
22is a bit difficult, is it not?
23 MR IRVING: I am trying to put some ideas in your Lordship's
24mind, that this witness is not accurate when he says 90
25per cent of the representatives on there are. Obviously
26and finally one further question on this, would you agree
1that in view of the fact that these particular bodies are
2the ones who have inflicted most damage on me over the
3last 10 years ----
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me just quote, Mr Irving, another quote from page 168
5from a speech you made in the Clarendon Club again, 29th
6May 1992 ----
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this relevant to the questions that we have asked?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] "I never used to believe in the existence of an
9international Jewish conspiracy", you said, "I'm not even
10sure now if there's an international Jewish conspiracy.
11All I know is that people are conspiring internationally
12against me, and they do mostly turn out to be".
13 Q. [Mr Irving] ...
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] "... (drowned out by laughter and applause) which I think
15it is fairly clear that the next word was going to be
17 MR IRVING: My Lord, I am not able to put bundle E to this
18witness and ask him questions on the documents which will
19substantiate what I just said in that speech, but
20certainly when we come to submissions which I am going to
21make, then I will justify that particular element.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure why you say you are not ----
23 MR IRVING: Because your Lordship has said that this is not the
24appropriate time to introduce bundle E with the documents
25on the global endeavour to suppress my rights to publish
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, and the reason I said was that it seemed
2to me that the point went to the damage that you say you
3suffered as a result of what you say are libels. That is
4something you can deal with in your evidence or in
5submissions. But if you are challenging -- but, you see,
6it is coming in a slightly different context. I think
7really, and when one gets to the bottom of it, it is
8further evidence -- I think this is the thrust of what
9Professor Evans is saying at the moment -- of an
11 MR IRVING: I agree, if left alone.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: On that, you are entitled to cross-examine.
13I hope you do not understand that one document may be
14relevant on two issues. On one issue ----
15 MR IRVING: I will not use the licence that your Lordship has
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: On any reliance that Professor Evans places
18on particular documents as showing your anti-Semitism, you
19are perfectly entitled -- I make this absolutely clear --
20to cross-examine. So if you want to show him that
21document from your bundle E, then please do, or your clip
22E. It has not become a bundle yet, has it?
23 MR IRVING: It is quite substantial. Do you have bundle a
24bundle E in front of you? That is how big it is. It has
25been quite a major conspiracy. This is only a part of it.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not encouraging you to go right the way
1through it. It is simply that if there is any ----
2 MR IRVING: No, my Lord, but I think, firstly, one or two
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page, Mr Irving?
5 MR IRVING: I am going to ask him one or two general questions
6first to set the scenery. (To the witness): Witness, is
7it your opinion that that remark you just quoted is
8evidence of an anti-semitic state of mind?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry, which remark was this?
10 Q. [Mr Irving] You one that you decided to read out about the
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Conspiracy, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Is criticism of Jewish people or community permitted for
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We had this yesterday. I do not think we
16need to traverse that ground again.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Of course.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: When I say "yesterday", I mean Thursday.
19 MR IRVING: If you are shown scattered evidence of a concerted
20endeavour by representatives of that community to abrogate
21my rights to write and publish, over a period of, say, 25
22years, around the world, would you be satisfied that that
23was a justified comment to make in those conditions?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, that is a very hypothetical question. In order to
25be -- I mean, I am constitutionally disinclined to believe
26in international conspiracies, and it would take a very
1great deal to persuade me that there was an
2internationally orchestrated conspiracy of this kind. It
3is the belief in an international Jewish conspiracy is a
4central element, in my view, of the most extreme forms of
6 Q. [Mr Irving] You talk about an international Jewish conspiracy, you are
7just talking about the kind of protocols of a Zion
8conspiracy, are you, or is one entitled to believe in a
9specific endeavour to achieve a certain aim, namely to
10silence David Irving as being a particularly dangerous
11historian? Is that an acceptable concept in your mind?
12Can you believe there is such an endeavour ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not myself believe there is such an endeavour, no.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] If ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But I have to say that it has not been a part of my task
16to investigate whether there has or not. I am not
17speaking, in other words, as an expert when I say that.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, I am wondering what use it is going to be to put
19these documents piecemeal to this witness. I do not think
20it is at this point.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: None at all. I mean, his position is very
22clear. He does not believe that there is an international
23Jewish conspiracy. Therefore, he thinks that when you
24talk of one, you are displaying evidence of anti-semitism.
25That is the end of it as far as this witness goes, I
1 MR IRVING: Yes. As long as your Lordship appreciates that the
2time will come when I will justify whatever remarks
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Absolutely.
5 MR IRVING: The only problem is we have a rather unruly
6witness, I think, who ----
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, that is not an appropriate comment at
9 MR IRVING: Well, I think it was not necessary really for him
10to have read out that passage if he was not prepared
11really to be cross-examined on it in depth on his own
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it happened. It was not unruly
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Thank, my Lord.
16 MR IRVING: Do you accept that this phrase "the enemies of free
17speech" to which the full phrase applies, "the traditional
18enemies" includes governments, political groups, trades
19unions and others as well the Jewish community leaders and
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry, where is the passage then where you say that? Are
22we back to the website again?
23 Q. [Mr Irving] No, I am back to your reference in that paragraph, to
24paragraph 2.5.4 to "the Jewish community" which you now
25admit is a phrase that I do not use.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have we got the reference in the website?
1 MR IRVING: Paragraph 2.5.4, my Lord, of his report: "Irving
2believes that there is an international campaign
3orchestrated by the 'Jewish community' ('our traditional
4enemies')" as though there is an equation between the two,
5an equation, shall we say?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, Mr Irving, you do in your speeches repeatedly refer
7to "our traditional enemies", and I think it is clear, in
8my judgment, that by "our traditional enemies" you mean,
9essentially, the Jews.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not true that the phrase that I use is "the
11traditional enemies of free speech"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not always, no. You refer to "our traditional enemies" on
13a number of occasions.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not obvious that one is the short form of the other?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] "Our traditional enemies" is three words and "the
17traditional enemies of free speech" is five or six words.
18One is the short form of the other?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I quote on page 168 "our traditional enemies", "our old
20traditional enemies", and so on.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but you appreciate that when you are speaking you do
22not use again and again and again exactly the same phrase,
23you modify it slightly. Sometimes you use the long form
24and sometimes you use the short form?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I have gone through a number of your speeches,
26Mr Irving, and you do use exactly the same phrases on a
1number of ----
2 Q. [Mr Irving] "The traditional enemies of free speech"?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- because you speak in a number of different places,
4"our traditional enemies".
5 Q. [Mr Irving] And "the traditional enemies of free speech".
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You have used both of those formulations.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, and "the traditional enemies of free speech", as I
8formulated them both in public and on my website, include
9the people who are trying to censor the Internet, is that
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think, Mr Irving -- correct me if I am wrong -- you have
12taken to talking about the traditional enemies of free
13speech more recently. In the early 1990s, it was -- you
14were much more inclined to talk about our traditional
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you have any evidence, any kind of statistical
17evidence, for that or that just a gut feeling you have
18that makes you say that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is just an impression I have on looking at and
20reading your speeches and your writings.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] But you have no evidentiary basis for that apart from your
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is my impression from having read your material.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you now answer my question and say, is it true that
25on my website and elsewhere I have listed as the
26traditional enemies of free speech, governments, trades
1unions and people who are censoring the Internet?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Again, Mr Irving, we are back to the problem ----
3 Q. [Mr Irving] And there are separate dossiers on each of those people?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- that we need to look at that page of your website
5where you ----
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are going to have to pause until somebody
7has been able to find it. I do not mean pause altogether,
8I mean come back to it.
9 MR IRVING: I have one more question.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] All I can say is that when I checked out, the list
11provided of some traditional enemies of free speech, there
12were virtually all Jewish.
13 MR RAMPTON: Can I intervene because it involves a technical
14problem which is beyond me. Could I ask Miss Rogers to
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you mind, Miss Rogers?
17 MS ROGERS: My Lord, what happens is if you click on the
18website, there is what is called down a pull down menu
19which lists the organizations under a heading, but I am
20told -- I cannot do it-- by others as well it is not
21possible to print the pull down menu.
22 MR IRVING: On Mackintosh it is.
23 MS ROGERS: What one could do, one could either type out the
24list, or perhaps your Lordship, with assistance, could go
25on Mr Irving's website and have a look and see the list.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will do that. Is it possible to give me a
1reference to where I will find it on the website?
2 MR IRVING: Www.fpp.co.uk/trial.
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is very easy, my Lord, to find it on the website. It
4is a very clearly organised website.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right, thank you very much, Miss Rogers. I
6am not surprised you ----
7 MR IRVING: So that each of these particular things has a
8dossier, right? Each of these organisations, the
9Anti-Defamation League, the Board of Deputies, each of
10them has a dossier?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Right.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, shall we leave it that I will have
13a look, and I know what the question is, whether they are
14mostly Jewish organizations or whether they are not.
15 MR IRVING: My Lord, you are just going to have a look at the
16menu, are you not, is that correct?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not going to browse generally through
18the Internet. No, I did not mean that in any way
19critically of it. I just am not going to; there is plenty
20else to be doing.
21 MR IRVING: Because there are 53 megabytes of information on
22that and I have idea which particular part of the forest
23you are going to get lost in.
24 (To the witness): Do you accept that there is
25concerted campaign by the traditional enemies of free
26speech to refuse to debate with people like me?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not accept the concept of traditional enemies of free
2speech, to start with. I do not accept that there is a
3concerted campaign. No, I have not seen evidence for
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with the number of times I have been
6invited to speak at universities over the last 10 years
7and the university has then come under pressure to cancel
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not, no, but I can quite believe that that is the
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Has this happened to other historians like John Charmley?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not regard you as an historian, Mr Irving. Let me
13make a distinction between universities and other venues.
14By appearing at a university and speaking in a university,
15I think you lay a claim to being an academic or being a
16scholarly historian which you receive an endorsement from
17by the fact that you appear at a university.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] I am careful not to create the impression that I am a
19scholar. Nothing would frighten me more.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think you try and give that impression in your books.
21You may have a different definition of "scholarship" from
22the one that I have. There is a distinction to be made,
23surely, if you take United States of America where nobody
24stops you from going around making speeches wherever you
25want to apart from universities.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar that I have lectured at the National
1Archives in Washington?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] On what occasion?
3 Q. [Mr Irving] About five years ago on Hermann Goring.
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not familiar, no.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with the fact that I have lectured at
6Harvard on Adolf Hitler at the invitation of the Master of
7Harvard, Dr Richard Hunt?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] On what occasion was that?
9 Q. [Mr Irving] This was 1977, I lectured on Hitler's War.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I am familiar with the fact that you have talked to
11many academic institutions in the 1970s, including my own
12college in Cambridge, I believe.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Indeed. I have spoken at Caius and I have spoken at
14various other colleges around the world until the problems
15arose. Are you familiar with the fact that these problems
16were generated by outside organisations?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would have to be provided with evidence of that,
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with the fact that I was in the
20University of Cork in Southern Ireland?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, how is it going to help me that
22you were addressing the University of Cork? We really
23must keep an eye on the ball. We have spent a very long
24time deal with these preliminary passages and I can
25understand why, for forensic purposes you are
26concentrating on those earlier passages, but in the end we
1must get to the specific criticisms because on that really
2Professor Evans is hanging his case against you. It
3stands or falls by that.
4 MR IRVING: I agree, but we have just this witness say, "I do
5not consider you to be a historian", and then it turns out
6that large numbers of academic bodies consider me to be a
7historian whom they would willingly hear, were it not for
8the violence that is threatened if I do attend. This is
9the reason that I mentioned that fact, my Lord.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
11 MR IRVING: Go to page 44 of your report, please, 2.5.6. Do
12you accept that the Board of Deputies of British Jews in
131919 acknowledge that I am "one of the world's most
14thorough researchers and an exciting and readable
15historian"? You put it in quotation marks.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think I can accept that, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] So you did ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would not dispute the fact that you are a thorough
19researcher. I have not disputed that in this case.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] You agree that that report does exist?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I accept your word for it. I have not seen it myself.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you accept that the report is currently lodged in
23the files of the Canadian government where it was placed
24by an organization with the intention of getting me denied
25access to Canada?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That I would require evidence, I think particularly with
1the intention. Since I have not seen the report, I am
2only citing it second hand here, for the purposes of
3talking about your reputation as an historian, as
4a researcher, I am not concerned with any other aspects of
5the report which, as I say, I have not read myself.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] On paragraph 2.5.8 on the same page, once again you are
7coming down pretty heavily on the historical profession,
8are you not? I wonder sometimes what your colleagues say
9in your common room when you go back to Caius about the
10way you are blackening the name of historians whom you
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Could you point out to me the blackening of historians'
14 Q. [Mr Irving] You are saying that those with the general knowledge have
15been kind to me, whereas those who are experts like
16yourself are rightly rude -- is that the burden of that?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. Let me read you the sentence. I am making a
18distinction between different kinds of historians with
19difference kinds of expertise in reviewing and commenting
20on your work. I quote here: "Those with a general
21knowledge have mostly been quite generous to Irving, even
22where they have found reason to criticise him or disagree
23with his views; but they have also seldom been entirely
24uncritical of Irving's work and his methods". Is that
25blackening their name?
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I draw your attention to footnote 34?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] That is the New Statesman 1977. Is that not ten years
3before I published my biography on Winston Churchill?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That, I take it, is a review of your book on Hitler.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, so my views on Churchill are neither here nor there
6in such context.
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They appear in your work on Hitler.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask you now to turn to page 45, where there is once
9again reference to my attempt to show that Hitler urged
10restraint in the Reichskristallnacht?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you consider this to be a completely ludicrous version
13of history, that Hitler was the restraining influence that
14night? Is this your conclusion?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. It depends exactly what you mean by "restraint" but
16I think I am summarizing what Hinton Thomas says in that
17review there. I think that is probably his phrase.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] But you devoted quite a lot of this report -- my Lord, I
19think this is something we can dwell on for a moment or
20two, which is the Kristallnacht?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are certainly going to have to spend some
22time on Kristallnacht. Whether this is the right context
23to do it I do not know, because in the end, as I say quite
24often, it is Professor Evans' views and his criticisms
25that matter, not what other historians may have felt.
26 MR IRVING: Oh dear. I will see how far I get with this one
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is for me to make up my mind, when I know
3what the criticisms are and I know what your answer is,
4whether I think it is well founded.
5 MR IRVING: The allegation is that I have been perverse, if I
6may put it like that, in suggesting that Hitler was a
7restraining influence that night of all nights. It turns
8out -- would you turn to page 48 of your little bundle
9please, which is F?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Is that the one with the pictures?
11 Q. [Mr Irving] That is the one with the pictures. On Thursday we found
12out that you knew who Professor Burrin, a Frenchman, was.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Burrin, a Swiss, I believe.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] You said that yes, he is an academic, an acceptable
15historian with the highest credentials. Is it right that
16he is Professor of International History at the Graduate
17Institute of International Studies in Geneva?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I will accept your word for it.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. If we go to page 57 of his work, which I have
20extracted in that bundle for your Lordship, do we not find
21there that he expresses precisely the same view as I do?
22In fact, two years before I did in my Goebbels biography,
23so it cannot be derivative in the slightest way, he seems
24to have been surprised by the extent of the destruction,
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 57? Do you mean that?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Page 48 of the bundle, my Lord, which is page 57 of the
2book Hitler and the Jews, the Genesis of the Holocaust.
3By Philip Burrin, who is an intentionalist historian.
4Would you explain what an intentionalist historian is in
5the great debate?
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not a functionalist historian. I think
7I know the answer.
8 MR IRVING: Very good.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
10 MR IRVING: Your Lordship has grasped it quicker than I ever
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us get on.
13 MR IRVING: Page 57 on this book?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not sure I would describe Burrin as an out and out
15intentionalist in his book on Hitler and the Jews.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] "Whilst Hitler could only have endorsed the concept of
17exacting reprisals, namely on the Jews, he seems to have
18been surprised by the extent of the destruction . Soon he
19will be able to gauge its impact. (Jump a sentence) In
20each case Hitler covered for Goebbels who did not derive
21the hoped for benefits from the affair." Is this
22Professor perverse, do you think, for adopting that on the
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to say I do not agree with that interpretation.
25I do not agree at all.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but you would not describe him as perverse?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It really comes down to how he has arrived at that, the
2methods he has used to arrive at that conclusion.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Of course, he did not have the Goebbels diaries then.
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Without looking at this in detail, it is very difficult to
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My criticisms of what you have to say about the
8Reichskristallnacht depend to a large extent on the
9methods you have used to arrive at the conclusions you
10arrive at. I think this is only a brief -- if I recall
11rightly and I may be wrong -- paragraph in a work which
12is almost entirely devoted to the wartime. It is part of
13a very brief broad summary.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] So what are you saying is that this view that Hitler was
15taken by surprise by it and that he covered for Goebbels
16but did nothing else, it is not perverse when it is stated
17by a professor of international history, but it is
18perverse when it is stated by David Irving?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] First of all, he does say that Hitler authorized the
20holding of spontaneous demonstrations, whatever that
21means. He was surprised by the extent of the
22destruction. I do not accept either of those points of
23view but, as I say, I do not know to what extent this
24rests on his own research, or to what extent this is just
25a very brief summary. I suspect this is just a single
26paragraph. Knowing what I recall of the book, it is
1nearly all about the years 1939, 1940, particularly 41 and
3 Q. [Mr Irving] It is a pretty revolutionary statement for a Professor to
4make though, is it not, at that time, to come out you and
5say that he thought that Hitler was not behind the
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think he says that.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] It is not exactly a throw away line, is it?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He says that -- it is speculative , is it not -- he could
10only have endorsed the concept of exacting reprisals. I
11have to say simply I do not agree with that point of view.
12It really comes down to how you arrive at that and the
13documentary basis for it.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Moving on to the next paragraph in the middle of that page
1545 back in your report, you refer to my omitting key
16passages of this kind from his discussion of documents
17such as Hitler's Political Testament. Is this Hitler's
18Political Testament that I am holding in my hand?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me say I do not refer to that. I am referring to Sir
20Martin Gilbert review and I am saying what he says. In
21all this passage I am simply trying to summarise what
22other historians have said.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not necessarily endorse every single point they have
25made. I am trying to establish reputation.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have created a problem. You understand
1that, Professor Evans?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] And I am trying to find the way through it without any
4unfairness to Mr Irving. Obviously the views of Sir
5Martin Gilbert command enormous respect, but I say again
6in the end it is for me to look at the evidence in huge
7detail, as we are going to have to, and then look at the
8criticisms, look at your answer and make up my own mind.
9Obviously it is of importance to note what Sir Martin
10Gilbert and these others say, but in the end it cannot
11impact very much on my decision.
12 MR IRVING: In my submission, this witness has relied very
13heavily on sources of a particular colour, if I can put it
14like that, and the reliability which I would challenge,
15then surely I am entitled seriatim to take these sources
16until your Lordship has really run out of patience.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not see why you have to take it that
18far, in a way. I have made my view pretty clear.
19I understand why you are doing this. Professor Evans
20possibly regrets one or two sections of his report for
21that reason. Maybe he does not, I do not know. What I am
22anxious to do, I make no secret of this, is to get on to
23the specific criticisms and see how much there is in
24them. Take it rapidly, if you would, Mr Irving.
25 MR IRVING: I will put on seven league boots. Did Sir Martin
26Gilbert rely on this book, Hitler's Political Testament?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I really cannot say. I cannot answer for Sir Martin
3 Q. [Mr Irving] You have criticised me through him for not relying on
4Hitler's Political Testament?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I thought it necessary, since you made a great deal of
6this in your reply to the Defence initially at the
7beginning of this whole case a couple of years ago, of
8your reputation as a historian, to go into that, and that
9is what I am talking about here.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar that Hitler's Political Testament is a
11forged document, and I know the Swiss gentleman who forged
12it in his own handwriting? There is every reason
13therefore why I should not have relied on that document.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is not really relevant to what I am saying here.
15What I am saying here is that you have been criticised by
17 Q. [Mr Irving] 2.5.10, please. I am sorry, the last lines of 2.5.9. Do
18you remember you are quoting Michael Howard criticising me
19for not crediting other historians where they had done the
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I, in view of the fact that you have not done so, call
23the court's attention to the review that Michael Howard
24wrote, which is in the little bundle at page 33? Does
25your Lordship have it?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
1 MR IRVING: I think in your Lordship's copy I may have
2highlighted a few sentences in yellow.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 33 of your E?
4 MR IRVING: Of F.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure you have, and it is very helpful
6when you do. I will read out the passages you have
7highlighted in my copy if you like.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] May I read out the passage in my report in full? The
9military historian Michael Howard ... praised the 'very
10considerable merits' of The War Path and declared that
11Irving was 'at his best as a professional historian
12demanding documentary proof for popularly held beliefs'".
13That is very positive and I am trying to convey there the
14positive impression that Howard gives. Then I go on to his
15criticisms: "Howard pointed out that Irving's account of
16an episode such as the enforced resignation of Generals
17Blomberg and Fritsch before the outbreak of the Second
18World War was not as original as he claimed and added
19nothing to the story already told by other historians.
20'It would be nice', he wrote, 'if Mr Irving occasionally
21recognised that other men had been there before him and
22done a competent job of work'". This is not a damning
23review. I am not trying to convey the impression that it
24is. Of course, since, Mr Irving, you say you never read
25other historians' work, that last criticism of Sir
26Michael's is really not very surprising.
1 MR IRVING: Oh dear. I wish you had not said that. Can I now
2draw your attention to the next item in that bundle, which
3is page 34? That is a letter from me to the newspaper
4that published that review.
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Can you direct me to the bundle?
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 34 of the slim F.
7 MR IRVING: Now you will see what has happened, will you not?
8Can I show you the book? First of all, is this the book?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have the point.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes I have the point too. That is one historian. Many
11other historians ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think climb down on that one.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I will climb down on Professor Deutsch, but he is not the
14only historian who has written about this subject.
15 MR IRVING: Just so that the people behind me know what has
16happened, is this the book to which you were referring by
17Professor Harold Deutsch?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] What you say in that letter, as you point out, Professor
19Deutsch in his book had based his account on material that
20you had supplied to him.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Let me get a lot mileage out of this. First of all, is
22Professor Deutsch Jewish?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have no idea.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Take it from me that he is a very good old Jewish friend
25of mine who is one of the United States old guard of
1 MR RAMPTON: There comes a time, even when it is a litigant in
2person, where we cannot have continually, we have had it
3all the time, evidence from counsel's row. I do not
4really mind. I am really standing up for rather a
5different reason. We have done 45 pages in a day and a
6half. At that rate Professor Evans will be in the box for
7another three weeks.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am very conscious of that. I do not know
9the shape of what is to come. I have not counted my
10interventions, but they have pretty numerous. The
11difficulty, Mr Rampton, if I may explain, is that
12Professor Evans has made reference to these other
13historians and their views. That does rather open up
15 MR RAMPTON: It only does if those references are (a) likely to
16be relied on by me, which is not very likely, and (b) and
17much more important, if they are likely to influence your
18Lordship. This is not a jury trial. If your Lordship
19were to make it clear, if it be the case, that this part
20of the report is not an important part ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I have made that clear effectively on
22a large number of occasions.
23 MR RAMPTON: I had thought so, and it does seem to me that this
24is a rather futile game of ping pong that is going on at
25the moment, and far better to get on to the detailed
26criticisms. Professor Evans has said a number of times
1why he does not regard Mr Irving as a reputable
2historian. It is because of the way he treats his
3material. Then we ought to be looking at that, in my
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, that really is very much what I
6think I have been trying to say to you very often. I am
7giving you, as I have said many times before also, as much
8latitude as I reasonably can, but I do think you really
9must get on to the specific criticisms. We are going
10very, very slowly and this morning I really have not found
11hugely helpful in terms of the task that I am eventually
12going to have to perform. That is my problem.
13 MR IRVING: I am trying to undermine your Lordship's confidence
14in this witnesses as being somebody who has the ability
15and the impartiality and the historical background to pass
16judgment on myself.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If I may say so, that is a perfectly
18legitimate thing to do, but in the end you cannot just
19attack credibility. You have to get on to the nuts and
20bolts of the report and show why they are not credible, as
21opposed to attacking Professor Evans' credibility on a
22more broad brush basis. Do you see what I mean?
23 MR IRVING: In that case it would have been well if Professor
24Evans had not written the initial 100 pages in his report.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I said that myself and I do rather
26take that view. He did. You know my view of it. You are
1a litigant in person and you are, if I may say so,
2handling your task extremely well, but one of the things
3that you do learn is to take hints if you are doing it
4professionally . I understand how difficult it is for you
5because there is stuff in those first 150 pages which you
6understandably take fierce objection to.
7 MR IRVING: It sets my teeth on edge, a lot of it.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not going to bulk very large in my
10 MR IRVING: Your Lordship knows how your Lordship is thinking
11but, with respect, I do not. You have a poker face and a
12complete mask like demeanour which keeps me totally in the
13dark. People ask me when I go home how have you done and
14I say I not know.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is probably best. Anyway, I have given
16the hint yet again. Mr Rampton is going shortly to ask me
17to make a ruling about it and, if I have to make a ruling,
18you know the way I am thinking at the moment, so let us
20 MR IRVING: Can we leap forward to page 47 of your report,
21please? Harsh words on John Charmley now, a right wing
22historian at the University of East Anglia.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] What is harsh about that? He is right-wing. I do not
24think he makes any secret of that. He is a former
25colleague of mine.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Does that disqualify somebody if they are right-wing?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, certainly not.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is enough about Mr Charmley. On to your
3next point. I am not being flippant at all, but there is
4nothing there for you, Mr Irving, I do not think, so come
6 MR IRVING: Can I ask your Lordship to go to page 26 of the
7little bundle, please? Recently received, but if your
8Lordship feels it is irrelevant, then I shall move on.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He pays you a warm tribute and wishes you
10well in your libel action.
11 MR IRVING: Can I take you to page 49, please?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am just saying that I quote Professor Charmley and
13saying that he admires Mr Irving in my report.
14 MR IRVING: My Lord, if I am referred to as some kind of pariah
15in the academic community whose views are worth nothing,
16I find myself ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is not the way I approach it. I am
18trying to find a way round this problem because I can see
19you are not going to take my hint. I have seen plenty of
20evidence, you have shown me a lot of evidence, from very
21distinguished people like Lord Trevor-Roper paying you
22tributes and, as a military historian, I certainly accept
23the evidence that I have heard about the number of people
24who have a very high regard for you. But in the end it is
25not as a military historian that you are appearing really
26in this trial. You are appearing for the very specific
1detailed criticisms of your approach made by Professor
2Evans, and those are what matter.
3 MR IRVING: You are talking about assassinations, is this right
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry, where is this.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] On page 49, and the suggestion which is implicit in that
7paragraph that the British did not carry out
8assassinations, that I should not have hinted that we did,
9and Irving's claim that the democracies had no hesitation
10about killing their foreign opponents. Do you accept that
11the British did carry out assassinations in World War II?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am describing Trevor-Roper's view of your work, and I am
13recounting what he says in a section that is about your
14reputation as an historian, where I try and lay out what
15your reputation amongst professional historians has been
16and is. I am not responsible for justifying every last
17detail of what every historian I quote has written about
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you reference the assassination of Chancellor Dollfuss
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I am not going to go into the
22assassination of the Austrian Chancellor in 1934. It has
23nothing to do with this case at all. You have to move on,
24Mr Irving. I really am not going to let this case grind
25almost to a halt on peripheral material.
26 MR IRVING: I am moving on. A 700 page report has been dumped
1on me by this expert witness in which he has used this
2material to blacken my name and set my teeth on edge. It
3has been very widely quoted and I do not know what your
4Lordship is attending to or not.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not attending to other historians' views
6about the issues I have to decide. In the end they are
7for me to decide, apart from those who have provided
9 MR IRVING: Move to page 57, please. I have leapt 20 questions
10there, my Lord.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do realize you have. I recognize that.
12 MR IRVING: 2.5.29, please. The allegation that I invented
13sources by Mr Charles Sydnor.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Once again, this is still in a section that is discussing
15your reputation amongst other historians.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] So you feel quite comfortable in throwing these kinds of
17reports or allegations or opinions of other historians at
18me to criticise my reputation without investigating how
19true they were?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not a central part of my report, Mr Irving. I am
21simply trying to establish that some historians have been
22extremely critical of your methods. That includes
23particularly Sydnor and Brozsat. I am aware of the fact
24that you replied to Sydnor and I dealt with that in my
25response to the written questions which you submitted.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you adopt Sydnor's criticism? This is
1Mr Irving's problem and I am not unsympathetic towards
2it. You recite the criticisms that Sydnor makes and then
3you in some way seem to rather disavow them when you come
4to give evidence. Are you saying that what Sydnor said is
5a justified criticism? Or are you simply giving it as
6background, as it were, to your own criticisms? That is
7his problem as you, I am sure, understand.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I can see the problem.
9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] If you say well, no, I am not making that any part of my
10case, then it may be that Mr Irving will feel we can
11forget about Mr Sydnor.
12 MR IRVING: Yes. We could do that with a whole number of my
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] What I am saying, trying to be as precise about it as
15possible, is that it seems to me that Sydnor is an
16authoritative critic, but of course I cannot say that
17every one of his criticisms is justified. It is not in
18the end part of my case at all. I am not taking up these
19points and making them in my own treatment of your work.
20I make a whole set of separate points about your work.
21This is to do with your reputation amongst historians.
22 MR IRVING: Can I draw your attention to the middle sentence
23where you say: "In his efforts to present Hitler in a
24humane light", which is one of the allegations against me,
25"Irving, wrote Sydnor, manipulated sources, invented
26incidents" -- that is a pretty serious allegation --
1"(such as Hitler's supposed rebuke of the Judge Freisler
2at the conspirators' trial) and once more, as so often,
3failed to give proper documentary references".
4 Professor, in your work at the Institute of
5History in Munich though my papers, did you not find the
6papers of Hitler's Adjutant Schaub?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Mr Irving, you did not respond to that criticism in your
8reply to Professor Sydnor in Central European History.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but, I think, Mr Irving, you may not have
10heard or digested what Mr Irving said. He said: "It is
11not in the end part of my case at all. I am not taking up
12these points and making them in my own treatment of your
13work. I make a whole set of separate points about your
15 I understand that really to mean that it is what
16appears from about page, I do not know, 120 onwards which
17Professor Evans relies on and he does not rely, unless
18they happen to be in both, on the criticisms by Syndor.
19I would have thought that that is sufficient for you to be
20able to say, "Well, right, I can forget about the
21recitations of other historians' views and get on to what
23 MR IRVING: Except that I would have submitted, my Lord, that
24in every single instance where he has produced such an
25episode, I am able to justify myself, as, for example, and
26this is not without significance as far as his credibility
1as a witness is concerned and his credit worthiness.
2I will take him to one further episode and then we will
3skip another 20 pages. (To the witness): Page 59. You
4applaud, shall we say, John Lukacs' attack on me, is that
5right, for having invented sources and all the usual
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I do not applaud it. I am summarizing it as part of a
8discussion of your reputation amongst historians.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Right. He writes: "Mr Irving's factual errors are beyond
10belief. He says that '40 per cent of the prisoners in
11southern France turned out to be Russians" as one example
12of how erroneous and factually erroneous I am?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we go very rapidly to make progress, not just to the
15review which we will have a look at, but to page 23 of
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that a telegram from General Devers to General Marshal
19and General Eisenhower?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Does the sentence that has been ringed on it say:
22"Prisoners captured are between 1,500 and 2,000 of which
23about 40 per cent are Russians"?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, if I just explain that this telegram was issued on
2517th August. It notes that the 6th Army Corp. were ashore
26by 1800 hours. "They occupied all small towns in this
1area which they say delineated by map references, and they
2are advancing on Toulon which the 3rd Division expects to
3reach by the morning and landing operations were
4continuing. The prisoners captured are between 1500 and
52,000 of which about 40 per cent are Russians".
6 So the first point is that -- well, there are
7many points -- the document does not say that 40 per cent
8of the prisoners in southern France turned out to be
9Russians. It just says that 40 per cent of the prisoners
10taken in a small area of southern France, Near Toulon, in
11the first few hours of an American landing were Russians.
12It does not say the Russians were volunteers. So it seems
13to me that this is an egregious misinterpretation of this
14document. You are blowing up a small report into a large
16 Q. [Mr Irving] This is the report by the Commanding General in command of
17the entire sector, the entire landing operation, in
18southern France. I do not really want to spend more time
19on this than to say that, quite clearly, the reference in
20my book depended solely on this telegram from Eisenhower's
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, it is right, is it not? I
23mean, this is from the Advanced Detachment of Allied
24Forces Headquarters for the attention, for his eyes only,
25to Generals Marshall and Eisenhower. It can hardly be a
26reference to some little skirmish. I mean, it must be a
1global report. Is Mr Irving not entitled to make the
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My Lord, he is talking about a few hours of a landing in a
4relatively small area with 1500 and 2,000 captured
5prisoners which is really a very small number. I do think
6it is a manipulation of this source to generalize about 40
7per cent of the prisoners in southern France which must
8refer, surely, to the whole of the southern half of France
9over the whole period in which the fighting was going on.
10 MR IRVING: No I think you will find ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think this is a classic example of ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving] --- before the words ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- of Mr Irving's blowing up a small source into a large
15 Q. [Mr Irving] I think you will find that before the words "40 per cent"
16the phrase is "in the initial phase of the attack 40 per
17cent", but he has cut those words out?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If you present me with the document, I would be happy to
19concede that if he has manipulated that.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a very good illustration of the
21problems we run into. You have not got the war between
22the Generals here, have we?
23 MR IRVING: No, I have not got it here with me, my Lord, but we
24have a much more serious problem with this witness, and
25this is that he has repeatedly relied on documents which
26are not in the H1 series ----
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am sorry, but the fact remains they were not
2volunteers. Russians who joined the German armies were in
3many cases, effectively, forced to do so.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] They were called Hilsswillige, were they not?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They were not volunteers.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] "Hiwis", is that right?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That, of course, is a classic piece of Nazi rhetoric.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not true that they joined with the intention of
9fighting the Bolsheviks and then found they had been sent
10to another front?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not in all cases, not at all, no. They were -- Russian
12prisoners of war in Germany were in extremely difficult
13conditions. Some 3 million were, effectively,
14deliberately left to starve and die by the Germans in the
15course of war, and the alternative to being pressed into
16the German Army was quite clear to many of them.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] John Lukacs has published a book recently, has he not?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, may I just try to help you because
19I do see your problem and I am actually sympathetic with
20it. If I tell you that my approach to these opening
21paragraphs, pages, where the views of other historians
22about your work are recited at length and in a very
23critical vein, if I tell you my attitude to them is going
24to be that they count for virtually nothing, so far as
25I am concerned, when I come to judge the criticisms made
26of you by Professor Evans, and I go a little bit further
1than that, and say it is my view that it is in every way
2-- this is not a criticism of Professor Evans personally
3-- unfortunate that they are there because they could be
4taken to indicate a preconception about the validity of
6 MR IRVING: I think they are grossly prejudicial, my Lord.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does that satisfy you that you really are not
8going to lose by not spending long, in fact I hope no
9longer, on these other historians' views?
10 MR IRVING: But you do accept my belief that they are grossly
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I chose my words with a certain amount of
13care. They are capable of giving rise to the impression
14that there was a preconception that there were justified
15criticisms about you. In the end, I think Professor Evans
16accepts that he has justify his own criticisms in his own
17terms and as a matter of his own beliefs.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
19 MR IRVING: Can you turn to page 63? We are now moving on to
20publishers. I will not deal with any more historians
21then. 2.5.38, can you accept that, in fact, my main
22publishers in that era were Macmillan and Hutchinsons and
23not Penguin? They were my major hard back publishers.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I mention publishing house -- your books are
25published by a variety of mainstream publishing houses,
26including Penguin Books, Macmillan, Hodder and Stoughton,
1HarperCollins, Grafton Books and Corgi paperbacks.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] But they ceased publishing me, did they not?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is correct, yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you implying they ceased publishing me because of
5inherent faults in my works or because of some other
6reason? Do you have any knowledge one way or the other?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am trying to see where I describe this. You have no
8longer been published -- since the late 1980s you have no
9longer been published by major houses, but instead you
10have brought out your books under your own imprint.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] You are aware, in fact, that Macmillans continued
12publishing me until 1992?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you suggesting that Macmillans and Hutchinsons and the
15other major hard back publishers ceased publishing because
16they found faults in my work?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I mean, one has to kind of guess really, I think, because
18I have not had access to any documentation which they
19have, but, as you know, the normal process among
20publishers of non-fiction is to have manuscripts and books
21submitted to referees for comment, and it may well be that
22that is the reason why they did not. I mean, your views
23have changed on a number of matters.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you any reason to ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Or did change in a number of matters, particularly on the
26Holocaust in the late 1980s, and I think it is not
1unreasonable to see a connection between the change of
2your views that took place in 1988 when I think you became
3a Holocaust denier, and the fact that within four years
4major publishing houses were not publishing your work any
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it in your knowledge of the publishing industry normal
7for publishers to come under outside pressure?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It depends what you mean by "outside pressure". As
9I said, publishers commonly send manuscripts and books out
10to a variety of referees who report on them. In a sense,
11if they get adverse reports from those referees, I guess
12that is outside, that is some kind of outside
14 Q. [Mr Irving] You have no knowledge of Macmillan ever having sent any of
15my recent and final books out to outside referees, do you?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not know whether you have submitted your manuscripts
17to them or not. This is only a very brief reference here
18in a few lines.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you ever heard of a major publisher ordering the
20total destruction of an author's works under the effect of
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Under the threat of legal action.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] No, not under threat of legal action?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is outside pressure.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Under threat of political pressure?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not to my knowledge, no. That is not to say it has not
2 Q. [Mr Irving] On page 63 you refer to the fact that reputable historians
3do not get themselves arrested and deported and all the
4rest of it. Is that correct?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I think so. Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Is Salman Rushdie a reputable historian?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, he is a novelist.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Is he reputable?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He is a novelist.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Blamed for his own misfortune?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He is a novelist. I am not talking about novelists. I am
12talking about reputable historians.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it reputable to abandon your principles in order not to
14get arrested and deported?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I find that a difficult question. I mean, that is so
16hypothetical. I am not quite sure who you are referring
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, you used the word "reputable".
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] All I am saying here ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, this is getting you nowhere.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] All I am saying here is that, as I say: "It is impossible
22to think of any historian of any standing at all who has
23been subjected to so many adverse legal judgments", and
24also who has ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware there has been only one adverse ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- experienced so many difficulties.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] --- legal judgment against me, and that this was in
2Germany in January 1993? Are you aware what that judgment
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I thought you had an adverse legal judgment against you in
5the case of your book on the Convoy of PQ17, I think it
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, we are certainly not going to go into
9 MR IRVING: Are you aware of what the adverse legal judgment in
10Germany in January 1993 was for?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you tell the court?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think it was for Holocaust denial, was it not?
14 Q. [Mr Irving] No, it was not for Holocaust denial. It was for saying
15that the gas chamber at Auschwitz (i) which is shown to
16the tourists is a fake.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Without seeing a copy of the judgment, I could not confirm
18that. That is not my understanding of what the judgment
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Those are the words complained of and that is what I was
21fined on. Will you comment ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, if I have copy of judgment in front of me, then
23I will, then I will be prepared to comment on that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you go to page 66 of your report? We now come to
25Irving and Holocaust denial.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: On that issue, Mr Irving, can I just before
2we embark on it so that we do not misunderstand one
3another, I have got now a definition from the Defendants
4of what they mean by "Holocaust denial" and you have
5cross-examined about that and I bear in mind the points
6you have made. I have all the statements that the
7Defendants say you made which they rely on as amounting to
8Holocaust denial. I have the context of the denials so
9that I can see any points you have to make on context, you
10have given your evidence about what you meant.
11 I am just wondering where we go with the
12evidence on it. Is it not in the end a question for me to
13look at what you have said or you are reported as having
14said and making up my mind whether you constitute a
15Holocaust denier in the sense the Defendants define that
17 MR IRVING: This is true, but I am trying to organize that word
18in the order of things. This is a useful paragraph to
19look at because in this paragraph, my Lord, he states that
20Holocaust denier is the central allegation against me in
21Lipstadt's book, in the book by the Second Defendant.
22I was going to ask whether he does not agree that the
23allegations about manipulation, distortion and deliberate
24mistranslation are far more serious for a professional
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is a perfectly fair question.
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, the answer is I say a central allegation, not the
3 MR IRVING: Well, nit-picking aside, will you now answer the
4question? Would you not agree that the allegation about
5manipulation, distortion and deliberate mistranslation of
6original records are far more serious to be slapped on a
7professional historian like myself or a professional
8writer like myself, if you do not like the word
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I describe it as a central allegation because it is
11not the only one. It does, to my mind, as it were,
12contain within it the allegation that you manipulated,
13falsified history, and it is an allegation to which in
14your plea to the court, your written submission to the
15court initially, you take extremely strong exception, so
16I felt it necessary to go into it.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] By what -- I cannot really question ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure you have answered the question
20 MR IRVING: I beg your Lordship's pardon?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that the Professor has
22answered your question quite.
23 MR IRVING: It is important.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is an important question and I
25think it is worth spending a few moments on.
26 MR IRVING: Because they have not exactly put these ones in
1section 5, so I am entitled to ask how serious these
2allegations are as seen by an acknowledged historian who
3is an expert witness on the matter.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, it is an fair question.
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] In the end, the sting or the main sting, as it is
7sometimes called, against Mr Irving is that he has
8manipulated data and so come to deny the Holocaust in the
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Or the other way round, that he is denying the Holocaust
11and, therefore, manipulated data.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Yes, I follow that.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The two are bound up together, my Lord, and I am trying to
14unpack them here. So certainly, of course, the allegation
15that he has manipulated data is in that sense the crucial
16allegation in Lipstadt's book.
17 MR IRVING: Professor, are they not separate allegations? They
18are four separate allegations, are they not? He
19manipulates, he distorts, he mistranslates and, on top of
20all that, he denies the Holocaust?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I think they are bound -- I mean, you can separate
22them out, and they are also very closely connected.
23I think the burden of the charges put forward in Professor
24Lipstad's book is that Holocaust deniers, by definition,
25as it were, manipulate and falsify history, falsify the
1 Q. [Mr Irving] But if you were to take for a moment ----
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let the Professor finish his answer.
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I had, my Lord.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You had finished?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
6 MR IRVING: If you were to wrench the Holocaust denial
7allegation out of the book and just leave the rest of it,
8the manipulation, the distortion and the mistranslation,
9that would still be a pretty serious allegation to make of
10an historian, would it not?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] You could not say, "Well, it is OK because we do not
13accuse him of Holocaust denial which is the big one"?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, it would be a very serious allegation if it were made
16against any historian ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] --- in order to prettify the image of Adolf Hitler in
19history he deliberately distorted. These are serious
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, absolutely. I agree.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] --- to make? Yes. It would render him virtually
23unpublishable in the world of serious writers?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] What do you think the Second Defendant meant and the First
26Defendant in publishing it when they describe me as being
1the most dangerous spokesman for Holocaust denial, the
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I think what was meant by that was that you more than
4people like, well, I think it is because you had a
5reputation for being a serious historian in the 1970s,
61980s, and that, therefore, that gives you a certain
7authority which is not the case with, say, Professor
8Faurisson, exProfessor Faurisson, or the other Holocaust
9deniers, Arthur Butts, and so on.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] So did I suddenly go mad or something that changed me from
11being a translator who did not distort and did not
12manipulate, and I suddenly abandoned all my principles and
13methods and everything I had taught myself and I suddenly
14went wrong in some way? Is this what the allegation is?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I have just described what I think the allegation is.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Apparently, you say that until the 1970s or 1980s I was
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I did not say that. I was talking about your
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Reputation?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Even in that case, and when one goes into it (as I did)
22and we have been over that, there are some historians who
23had pointed out in the 1970s and 80s that you did engage
24in distortion and manipulation. Nevertheless, I think,
25and I have tried to convey this in talking about your
26reputation, that you did have quite a widespread
1reputation as an expert historian of the Second World War,
2and that is I think what Professor Lipstadt meant by
3saying that you were a dangerous spokesperson for
4Holocaust denial. You did change your views -- you
5describe yourself how you changed your views as a result
6of the Leuchter report at the end of the 80s and the court
7has been into that over the past few weeks.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but the word "dangerous" is what I am looking at.
9Why is the word "dangerous" used instead of "formidable"
10or "one to be taken seriously"? The word "dangerous"
11implies that I am a danger to something, does it not? It
12presupposes that I am a danger -- would you say I am a
13danger to somebody's interests? Is this what is implied
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I do not think that is what that means. It is
16difficult to second guess why the word "dangerous" is used
17here rather than, as you say, "persuasive" or
18"formidable", but I think, in the context of Professor
19Lipstadt's book, that means that you are more likely,
20indeed, to be persuasive than some of the other figures in
22 Q. [Mr Irving] I am dangerous to the whole of existing history of the
23Holocaust? Is that what is implied by that?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is, in the end, a matter for me,
25what Professor Lipstadt would have been understood to
26mean, but it seems to me it is pretty clear that the
1danger is that a lot of people will -- I was going to use
2the word "swallow", that is a bit offensive -- accept the
4 MR IRVING: Yes, or take it seriously and start asking awkward
5questions, my Lord.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us proceed on that footing.
7 MR IRVING: If you would now turn the page, my Lord, we now
8come to page 67, and this is where I have to ask your
9Lordship's guidance. The expert witness is here giving an
10opinion on the meaning of words, and all the authorities
11that I have consulted suggest that this should not be.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not sure I really agree with
13that. On the other hand ----
14 MR IRVING: Your Lordship agrees there are authorities that say
15that expert witnesses cannot give evidence on the meaning
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, there are, but, I mean, not in this
18context. I think Professor Evans is perfectly entitled to
19say what he understands the Holocaust to be referring to,
20but is it going to help me because, in a sort of broad
21sense, everybody knows perfectly well what is referred to
22by the Holocaust.
23 MR IRVING: I strongly disagree, my Lord, with the utmost
24respect. We were asked this very early on by Mr Rampton,
25your Lordship will remember. Your Lordship will remember
26that I said that, to my mind, the Holocaust is the visual
1image that people have. I, first of all, defined it as
2being the immense tragedy inflicted on the Jewish people
3by the Nazis and their collaborators during World War II
4which I think is a very fine definition, but there are
5countless other definitions.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I would suggest to you is that time in
7cross-examination of Professor Evans is not going to be
8well spent by discussing various meanings ----
9 MR IRVING: Meanings of words.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- or definitions of the Holocaust. You can
11do that in submission, and I think it would be much more
12sensible to deal with it in that way.
13 MR IRVING: Yes. On page 71, my Lord, you will find the vague
14footnote that I referred to earlier.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That simply says: "If you want to know more about
17Auschwitz read Professor Robert Jan van Pelt's report".
18 MR IRVING: All 770 pages of it?
19 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, it is only fair to point out that this
20report is directed at the court and the author of this
21report, Professor Evans, is entitled to assume that the
22court will read the whole of van Pelt's report.
23 MR IRVING: It is a rather superfluous kind of footnote, is it
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I understand it is a general reference
26to van Pelt.
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am simply trying to say there I really am not --
2I really do not, I want to save space, I do not want to
3say too much about Auschwitz because that is a subject
4dealt with by another report. That is really all that
5footnote is trying to say.
6 MR IRVING: Page 74 -- are we making fast enough progress, my
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Faster.
9 MR IRVING: 3.1.14, line 2, you say: "The essential point is
10that there is wide agreement that there was a systematic
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Now, I am nervous. As soon as we have the word
14"systematic" coming in, of course, then the court pricks
15up its ears?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Is "wide agreement" sufficient proof, in your view, or do
18you want to be more rigorous with our methods?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am trying to summarize here what the concept of the
20Holocaust or, well, what I am saying actually is that the
21term, the word "Holocaust", is a secondary issue. I think
22in order to ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Are wide agreements always right? There was wide
24agreement that the earth was flat ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We had this almost exact exchange on
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] We have had this before.
2 MR IRVING: I am glad that your Lordship is familiar with
3that. In other words, "wide agreement" is not sufficient
4evidence alone; we do need more rigorous support, do we
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] What I am saying, of course, is that there is wide
7agreement based on an enormous amount of research into a
8very large quantity of documentation ----
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, did you say three lines from the bottom ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- which I do not think you can say is true of the belief
11that the earth is flat.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] You do say three lines from the bottom: "The Nazi
13authorities also left an enormous quantity of
14documentation providing detail of the policy of
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Have we not been hearing now for four weeks that there is
18no such documentation?
19 MR RAMPTON: No, my Lord, that is simply not right. I do not
20know if Professor Evans has been in court all the time,
21I am sure he has not, but your Lordship will recall that
22Mr Irving himself, on the basis of a very considerable
23volume of documentation, has conceded -- I use that word
24advisedly -- not only that the systematic shooting of vast
25numbers of Jews in the East, in Russia, happened, but that
26it happened on Hitler's authority.
1 MR IRVING: Of course we are not talking just about the
2shootings on the East, are we?
3 MR RAMPTON: Just, no.
4 MR IRVING: We are talking about we have a major problem with
5what happened elsewhere.
6 MR RAMPTON: We are talking about something like 1.2 million
7people, on Mr Irving's figures.
8 MR IRVING: I think that the question I should have asked is,
9is there a vast body of documentation giving evidence,
10providing details, of the policy of extermination in
11Auschwitz and the other camps like that?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is not what I say. All I am trying to do here is to
13advise the court that there is a very large quantity of
14documentation, something which I am sure the court now
16 Q. [Mr Irving] On page 79 at line 5 you refer to a recent Holocaust
17denial work. Is this a massive tome by one Barbara
18Kulaszka with the title: "Did Six Million Really Die"?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I cannot recall whether it is a massive tome.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] It is about 650 pages, A4 size?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Edited.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Edited. Am I right in saying that this is an account by
23Barbara Kulaszka of the trial in Toronto on the history of
24Auschwitz, shall we say?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is right, on the Zundel trial.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Am I right in saying that Barbara Kulaszka, being a
1solicitor of the Court of Ontario, is an officer of the
2court and well qualified to write this kind of summary?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That, I am not sure. I think she has some kind of legal
4status. I took this to be a work of Holocaust denial from
6 Q. [Mr Irving] So that a summary of the evidence for the Prosecution and
7the Defence in a law court can be taken to be a work of
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whether it could or it could not, it has
10nothing to do with this case.
11 MR IRVING: My Lord, the reason I am bringing it to your
12Lordship's attention is that I have provided in the little
13bundle a two-page summary at pages 20 and 21 by this
14solicitor of the issues of Holocaust denial which is a
15very useful summary of what is said about it and what the
16various authorities are. That is from that particular
17publication. Your Lordship might find it useful at some
18time just to digest its contents. I put it no stronger
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do take Barbara Kulaszka to be an advocate of Holocaust
21denial from the contents of what she writes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, because a solicitor writes an account of
23the trial of a Holocaust denier, giving the Prosecution
24and Defence case, it is the work of Holocaust denial?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me say, I do not think it is a neutral account and the
26fact that she is a solicitor is neither here nor there.
1 MR RAMPTON: No. In fact, I am told that she was Zundel's
2solicitor and also Mr Irving's.
3 MR IRVING: Well, of course, Mr Rampton will be familiar with
4the concept that she is an officer of the court and is
5subject to certain basic principles and etiquettes. My
6Lord, might I suggest that we pause there for our lunch
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, the time has come, certainly. Where are
9we going after the adjournment?
10 MR IRVING: We will make future progress into the parts your
11Lordship is interested in.
12 MR RAMPTON: I have laid hands on (because they have been given
13to me) some pages showing recent references on Mr Irving's
14website, I think it is Mr Irving's website, to what he
15calls some "traditional enemies of free speech".
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you got a copy?
17 MR RAMPTON: We have had these printed out. It may not be the
18whole story by any means.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful. Thank you very much.
20Then you can return to this, if you want to, Mr Irving,
21briefly at 2.00. So 2 o'clock.
22 (Luncheon adjournment)
24Professor Evans, recalled.
25Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving?
1 MR IRVING: My Lord, we are now well into Holocaust denial and
2trying to make forward progress. Professor Evans, have
3you had any discussion since Thursday with anybody else
4about the evidence you are giving, or with the instructing
5solicitors in this case?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] None at all? You know that you are not allowed to, do you
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do indeed, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask you to go to page 89 of your expert report
11please, looking at paragraph 5: "The murder by shooting
12of thousands of Jews is not the same as the extermination
13by shooting, gassing starvation and deliberate neglect of
14millions of Jews which forms an essential part of the
15Holocaust as conventionally understood".
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] No doubt you mean the shooting or gassing or starvation or
18deliberate neglect -- is that right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, of course.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] You do accept that I have written in most of my books, in
21recent years certainly, about the shootings in a way which
22makes it quite plain that I do not deny that they took
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] So we are limiting really the allegations of Holocaust
26denial to the more narrow front of the fact that I call
1into doubt the existence of gas chambers for mass
2extermination of Jews.
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is one very important element in it. As
4I say here, there are a number of different elements to
5Holocaust denial. One of them is what I call here the
6extermination by shooting, gassing starvation and
7deliberate neglect of millions of Jews, plus the
8systematic nature of this, plus the number, the millions
9of Jews as opposed to thousands, as I put it there, and
10the allegation of the fabrication of evidence for the
11Holocaust as conventionally understood. All those things
12belong together, as I said this morning.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] I am moving forward now into the hundreds, I think. I did
14ask you -- this is a written question, in fact page 91.
15You commented once or twice on the index to my books.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Oh, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] You say that you write the index of your own books?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you accept that most reputable publishers in fact have
20the index prepared by an outside indexing professional?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. Not in the case of scholarly works of history. My
22experience in research books authors, historians, are very
23keen to index their own books. In any case, my comment on
24indexing is simply because, in your written reply to the
25Defence, you draw attention to index entries in your
26books, so I assume that that meant that you accepted that
1they were genuine, and accept some responsibility for
2them. Otherwise you would not have drawn attention to
4 Q. [Mr Irving] But you do accept that, in the case of all my books with
5the exception of one, I have no part in the preparation of
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If you say so.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How does that work? I am asking you because
9you are the witness. How easy is it for the writer of
10Hitler's War, for example, to get somebody else to do his
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think, my Lord, correct me if I am wrong, what would
13happen is that an author would simply say to the
14publisher, well, employ a professional indexer, and there
15are such individuals, and take the money off my royalties,
16something like that, to pay the fee.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I follow how it might work financially, but what I do not
18understand at the moment is how the professional indexer
19is going to know what to put in the index.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, that is a problem. They are professional indexers
21so they use their own judgment as to what is important and
22what is not. You start with place names, person names,
23and then a number of subjects that you think are important
24in the book.
25 MR IRVING: As the author of some 30 books, perhaps I can
26explain to your Lordship that there is a professional
1society of indexers and there is actually a British
2Standard for indexes, believe it or not. The wise author
3is well advised to leave the index to the professionals
4rather than to attempt to do it himself. The only book
5that I have indexed in fact was The Destruction of
6Dresden, the recent edition?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I disagree with that. I think a wise author should index
8his or her own books. It is a way you maintain control
9over what the index says.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Except you cannot draw conclusions from the content of the
11indexes of my books as to the author of those books, if
12I say that the author did not write the index.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Mr Irving, you are the one who drew attention to the index
14in your reply to the Defence of the second Defendant. You
15cite index entries as evidence of what you write about the
16Holocaust. That is the only reason why I use the index so
17you yourself rely on them.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not want get sucked into this particular morass.
19Will you agree that the only reason the index was cited
20was to draw the attention to pages that were there by
21reference and not to the actual index itself?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes. Obviously.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] If you now have a look please at page 93, just going back,
24you refer to the fact that these editions of Hitler's War
25were published under the same cover, line one?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] And you will agree with me, do you not, that you comment
2frequently on my having omitted things from the later
3edition of my book, that passages were omitted?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, in particular references to the Holocaust.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you accept that Hitler's War in the first edition
6was 959 pages long, that is this edition, the first
7edition, and that The War Path was 328 pages, and that the
81991 all in one edition was less than a thousand pages, so
9there must have been substantial abridgement in order to
10fit them all into one volume?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes. It is not the fact of abridgement that I am
12commenting on but what is excised.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you accept that, in the course of abridgement, by
14virtue of the task of abridgement, things get omitted?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes, of course. That is what abridgement is.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 93, paragraph 1, two lines from the end, you say, the
17liquidation programme and the systematic murder
18are 'notions' as much as Hitler's knowledge of them. Are
19you suggesting that the word 'notions' is mine? You put
20it in quotation marks.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. I quote you here saying that Hitler made statements
22in 1942 and 3 which are incompatible with the notion that
23he knew the liquidation programme had begun and that
24Europe's Jews had been systematically murdered.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you accept from me that a digital search of the text
26for the word "notions" found it only once in a 1940
1reference to the French campaign?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, "notion" is in the singular. That is why the plural
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Notion or notions. In other words, once again, you put a
5word in quotation marks as though it is by me which is not
6actually by me. It is just your word.
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am sorry, it is. It is your word.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I am just saying it is not, because I have done a
9word search on the entire text and it is not in there.
10Will you now carry on to page 93, the last line, that
11I have removed all mention of the word 'extermination'
12from the book.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to say I do not accept that. I am quoting your
14words there, the notion that you knew a liquidation
15programme had begun. It is in the introduction to the
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you look at the last line of that page, please, the
18introduction to the 1977 edition of the book? I am sorry,
19in the later edition of the book, I have removed all
20mention of 'extermination', is that correct?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am trying to find this. Where is it?
22 Q. [Mr Irving] The last line of page 93 and the first line of page 94.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The introduction? Yes.
24 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I intervene to correct an error by
25Mr Irving, no doubt perhaps not for the last time. Page
2690 of the introduction to Hitler's War, first complete
1paragraph, "On several occasions in 1942 and 1943 Hitler
2made in private statements which are incompatible with the
3notion that he knew that a liquidation programme had
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is right, Mr Irving, is it not?
6 MR IRVING: Yes. Will you now go to the last line of 93 and
7the first line of 94, where you say that I have removed
8all mention of the word 'extermination'?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I do not say that.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] All mention of ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The introduction -- let me read those sentences. The
12first reference in the introduction on pages 17 to 21 is
13the defence of Irving's views of Hitler. "It has already
14been pointed out above how it differs from the
15corresponding introduction to the 1977 edition of the book
16in removing all mention of the extermination of the Jews".
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you accept that the word 'exterminate' or
18'extermination' occurs 29 times in that book?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It depends in reference to who.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is the introduction I am talking about.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not hear your answer, Professor Evans.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am referring to the introduction. I am not claiming
23that the word does not occur in the whole book.
24 MR IRVING: At page 96 you refer to the fact that from the
25second edition of 1991, the 1991 edition, looking at the
26first line of paragraph 7, "Even more strikingly the
1testimony of Morgen and Lorenz and the Slovak Jews has
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Which Slovac Jews are you referring to?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Verba and one other.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Verba and Wetzler, is that correct?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it possible that I had learned something between the
9two editions that made me totally distrust the evidence of
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How can he know that unless you put what it
13 MR IRVING: Thank you, my Lord, for inviting this. Will you
14turn to the little bundle, please?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I can cut this short. I footnote this. I explain in
16footnote 14 on page 97, since having written this book in
171977, you said, "I understand that that Slovac report is
18open to some question", so I point that out.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. It was not just open to some question.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, that is what you said.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Could you go to pages 4 and 5 of the little bundle F?
22This goes to a rather wider issue in fact than just the
23footnoting. Pages 4 and 5 of the little bundle F, is this
24an article from the Toronto Star as reproduced on my
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is an article in your website. It is not reproduced in
1the original. It is not a photocopy. It is copied.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Does it purport to be reproduced from an article from the
3Toronto Star dated January 24th 1985?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It does purport to be that, yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Is the headline, "Book an artistic picture, survivor never
6saw actual gassing deaths"?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is the headline, yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it an account of testimony given by the afore mentioned
9Verba in the Toronto trial of Zundel in which, under
10cross-examination, Verba, and this is the indented
11passage, "yesterday admitted he was never inside that
12particular bunker" and Verba had seen, it was the roof he
13had seen of the mortuary and not a gas chamber. That is
14the indented passage.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Does the rest of the article suggest that Verba was not a
17very reliable eyewitness of what he claimed to have seen
18or reported on?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It suggests that there are some aspects of what he
20original originally said were not reliable but he insists
21that others were, according to the article.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. I am sure, if he had been in Auschwitz as he
23undoubtedly was, he was able to testify to certain aspects
24of what he had seen, but on the important issue of the
25goings on in gas chambers, it turned out he was not an
26eyewitness and was therefore in no sense reliable as a
1witness. Is that correct?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. I do point that out in the footnote, as I have had
3said. You understand it is open to some question. It
4seems to me a fair comment.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Your Lordship will appreciate that the reason I have
6brought that to your Lordship's attention is it goes to
7the question of eyewitnesses again. This was an
8eyewitness of crematorium No. 2, the big building. It
9turns out that he collapsed under cross-examination in
10Toronto. Under that circumstance was I right therefore in
11later editions of the book to omit his testimony or
12reference to it?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It depends rather on what testimony you were omitting.
14For example, he does say that he heard things from
15reliable sources, that he insisted he had made accurate
16estimates of the number of murder victims, and so on.
17But, if those passages which you omitted concerned those
18which he himself admitted were wrong, then of course you
19were right to omit them.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Thank you. Can we now go to page 100, where we are now
21dealing with my biography of Hermann Goring. Do you have
22that in paragraph 1?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we leaving Hitler's War?
25 MR IRVING: For the moment.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I realise for the moment. Can I ask
1Professor Evans a general question? It may be rather
2difficult for you because you may not have it all in mind
3at the moment. In so far as reference was made to the
4Jews in the first edition of Hitler's War 1977, and the
5references to Jews in the second edition 1991,
6quantitatively and indeed qualitatively, I suppose, did
7you notice a significant difference? I have just been
8looking at the indexes in both instances. Are the
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, they are. Mr Irving himself said that he removed all
11references to extermination camps and death factories from
12the 1991 edition which I quote on page 100 near the top,
13so they are significant changes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Sorry, Mr Irving, you are going on to
16 MR IRVING: Yes. If the witness again says that I removed all
17reference to extermination camps and death camps, then
18I draw attention to the fact that the word "exterminate"
19occurs 28 times in the second edition of the book, my
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is not quite the same thing, of course.
22 MR IRVING: Did I understand your Lordship to say that you were
23comparing the indexes of the two volumes?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I was.
25 MR IRVING: May I draw attention to the fact that the index of
26the 1991 edition that you have there was prepared by the
1American publishing company Avon, which was highly
2inadequate, whereupon we commissioned a separate index,
3which I can provide your Lordship. We have that index
4available. It is about 50 pages long of typescript, much
5more comprehensive, and a comparison ----
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that the index being different may
7have been rather less detailed in one case than the other,
8but it may be a worth while exercise to see what was there
9in the first edition and what has come out.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The point, Mr Irving, is that you yourself, as I note in
11paragraph 2, page 93, drew attention in your written reply
12to the Defence, you drew attention to the 1991 index
13entries as evidence that you were not a Holocaust denier.
14So I am puzzled as to why you should be disputing the
15accuracy of it.
16 MR IRVING: I draw attention to the pages referenced by those
17indexes but, of course the actual index itself which his
18Lordship is doing a statistical comparison with, he should
19therefore use the correct index rather than this rather
20cheap index produced by the Americans. The third edition
21of the book which is going to press this month has an even
22better index being prepared. But, once again, the index
23is not -- can I now proceed to Hermann Goring?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That was my fault, sorry.
25 MR IRVING: Your question, as I understood, was purely about
26the comparison between the indexes of the two or the
1actual mentions in the book?
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was more whether the index would suggest
3that there was quite a lot that was not repeated in the
41991 edition gives a fair impression of whether there were
5significant omissions and the answer that Professor Evans
6has given is yes.
7 MR IRVING: The 1991 edition was a very truncated edition in
8its original incarnation.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That makes it even odder.
10 MR IRVING: At page 100, please, Professor Evans, we are
11dealing now with the biography of Hermann Goring. You
12have in the fourth line of that paragraph noted that the
13book was published in 1989. What conclusions do you draw
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That you had completed it, roughly speaking, a year or
16slightly less before.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] So what you are suggesting is that by that time I had
18taken on board the Leuchter report, is that right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. That would be my assumption, the way books were
21 Q. [Mr Irving] You had my diaries available when you wrote your report,
22or researchers had the diaries available. Can I read to
23you the entry in my diary of January 11th 1988, which is
24only one line long, "January 11th 1998, 4.45 p.m. posted
25rest of Goring by Data Post courier to New York". Will
26you take it that that implies that the book was completed
1on January 11th 1988 therefore?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, though of course then you have the opportunity to
3make revisions in the proof.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you accept therefore that the book was delivered to
5the publishers three months before I first set eyes on
6Fred Leuchter or the Leuchter report?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The manuscript yes, but you do have the opportunity to
8make changes to the proof, do you not?
9 Q. [Mr Irving] And that, if I did not make such changes in proof stage,
10therefore this would invalidate any points you seek to
11make based on the presumption that I had the Leuchter
12report information at that time?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is an interesting point, but it does not really
14affect what I say about the Goring book.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] If you are seeking to make some kind of watershed around
16the time that I learned of the Leuchter report as being
17April 1988, this is significance that the Goring book was
18completed before the watershed and delivered to
19publishers. Are you familiar with the fact that
20publishers frown on any kind of proof stage corrections,
21their authors' corrections, charges levied, are you
22familiar with that?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is a matter of negotiation. You can usually make up to
24about 10 per cent changes. It is matter of negotiating
25percentages of what you are allowed to change. It depends
26on the publisher and so on.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you any evidence that the manuscript that I delivered
2to the publisher in January 1988 was different from that
3subsequently published in 1989?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I do not.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, the Goring book counts as a pre watershed
6book and there is no evidence to the contrary?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Unless what you are telling me is that the watershed might
8have been slightly earlier than the Leuchter report, which
9is a very interesting point. What I have to say about the
10Goring book does not really depend on that. That is, if
11you like, an assumption on my part which may have been
12wrong. What is important about it is that you point to it
13as evidence that you are not a Holocaust denier, and
14I examine it briefly on pages 100 to 103, and point out
15that what you say in the book is not incompatible with
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but at the time you wrote that you presumed that
18I was post watershed, so speak, and that was why you
19confidently adopted these interpretations.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I adopted the interpretation on the basis of what
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you know of any evidence that Hermann Goring was aware
23of the goings on in Auschwitz, the mass extermination in
24gas chambers which is part of the Holocaust story?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Oh goodness.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Any documentary evidence?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have not presented any documentary evidence for the
2court. I am not really concerned with that issue. What
3I am concerned with in this section are your views on the
4Holocaust as exemplified by the Goring book.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Did I not write in the Hermann Goring book on pages 343 to
69, this is your second line at page 101, that in the
7winter of 1941 to 42 Goring heard rumours of mass killings
8in the East, which is of course what we all accept
9happened, that there were these mass killings?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The operative word there I think is "rumours".
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You continue: The surviving documents provide no proof
13that these killings were systematic, they yield to no
14explicit orders from above and the massacres themselves
15were carried out by the local Nazis, by no means all of
16German, points which I think you have now admitted are
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Now that we have access since 1988 when this manuscript
19was delivered to the police decodes, we are able to
20establish with much greater detail, is this not correct,
21precisely how these things happened?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, but part of my point is that in 1977 in Hitler's War
23you took a rather different attitude to these matters.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Different altitude in which direction?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You accepted much more that there was systematic mass
26murder of Jews.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] On the Eastern Front, the shootings or altogether?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Altogether.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, at that time I accepted the whole package
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Oh, I do not know whether it was uncritical or not. You
6seem to accept a large part of it, certainly that there
7were mass murders of many millions of Jews, including the
8use of gas. I think you did accept that in 1977, and
9there really is not any evidence in the Goring book that
10you accept it there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] You appreciate that, when I wrote the Hermann Goring book,
12I did so on the basis of his as yet unpublished diaries
13and other documents to which I had had very limited or
14exclusive access like the entire transcripts of his
15conferences and documents like that, which other
16historians had not seen, and therefore I was probably
17entitled to express a view of my own on the basis of those
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. It is a matter of how you comment on these things.
20If you cite, as you do on page 469, Goring claiming under
21interrogation that the extermination camps were merely
22propaganda, I always thought he said there were places
23where people were put to useful work, you do not actually
24comment on that, you just seem to accept that.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, I should have done what an establishment
26historian would do and immediately pooh-pooh the notion
1that somebody as powerful as Goring could have
2been unfamiliar with what was going on, should I?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It seems to me a responsible historian should comment on
4that statement, yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] He should just have said, the documents suggest this but
6common sense suggests differently? Is it perverse not to
7make such a comment, just to leave the documents to speak
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] What we are dealing with here is the allegation that you
10are a Holocaust denier, and my point there simply that
11what you are saying in the Goring book is not incompatible
12with your being a Holocaust denier, although in your reply
13to the Defence you say that it is.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we go on to page 106? We have now crossed the 100
15mark. Professor, will you accept that I have let you off
16a lot of hooks which I considered were buried in the first
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That risks undoing the good that you have
19just pointed out you have done as he will ask what hooks
20and then we will be back.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I promise not to ask that, my Lord. I will not accept
23 MR IRVING: Page 106, halfway down paragraph 1, the second
24paragraph on the page, you say, "Within a couple of years,
25however, Irving was declaring himself to be an expert on
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] When have I declared myself to be an expert? We are
3talking here about the mid 1980s, are we not? Within a
4couple of years Irving was declaring himself to be an
5expert on the Holocaust?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I take that to be 1988, actually.
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] 1988.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is within a couple of years of 1986, and
10that is Zundel.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I follow it on by talking about Zundel, where you were
12appearing as an expert witness.
13 MR IRVING: Was I appearing as an expert witness on the
14Holocaust or as an expert witness on Adolf Hitler's role
15in directing the Third Reich?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] As I recall, you were appearing as an expert witness on
17the Second World War.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] So, in other words, not an expert on the Holocaust?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is included. The point in any case is that
20you were asked on the numbers killed in the Holocaust, you
21gave your opinion as I quote it there, and therefore you
22are lending the imprimatur of your expertise to those
23views. If you did not have any expertise on the numbers
24killed in the Holocaust, presumably you would have said
25that you did not have any expertise.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Defence counsel is there putting something to me and
1asking me for a comment, and I begin my reply, the last
2three lines on that page with, "I am not familiar with any
3documentary evidence of any such figure".
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. You have the emphasis wrong. "I am not
5familiar with any documentary evidence". I think that is
6fair, Mr Irving, if you read on.
7 MR IRVING: For the purpose of what I am saying, my Lord, it is
8I am not familiar. I am not claiming to be a Holocaust
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Mr Irving, here you claim in the witness box in that
11particular trial, "I am not familiar with any documentary
12evidence of any such figure of 6 million, it must have
13been of the order of 100,000 or more but to my mind it was
14certainly less than the figure which is quoted, 6
15million", and so on. You were giving that testimony as an
16expert. In August 1988 you told an audience in Toronto,
17"I have now begun over the last few months going around
18the archives with a completely open mind looking for the
19evidence myself because of Auschwitz, just to take that
20one cardinal tent pole of the case, if Auschwitz itself
21was not an extermination factory, what is the evidence
22that it was"? You claimed that you were looking in 40
23different government and private archives to see what they
24had on Auschwitz. You were writing a book on Auschwitz
25according to one of your speeches.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Can halt your flood there and say----
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is answering the question.
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am trying to answer your question. You said that this
3final book you claimed you were writing on Auschwitz would
4pull off a coup even more spectacularly than exposing the
5Hitler diaries as a fake, and all that seems to me to be
6evidence that you were proclaiming yourself to be an
7expert on the Holocaust. You said you had been fined in a
8German court. In 1992 you said you had been fined in a
9German court for uttering an opinion, a sincerely held
10opinion, "an opinion, I would venture to add, which I hold
11as an expert on the Third Reich", and the opinion was that
12the gas chambers shown to tourists in Auschwitz was a
13fake. That seem to me to constitute a claim for expertise
14on the Holocaust. You are writing a book about Auschwitz.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] I did not say that I am an expert on the Holocaust, did
16I? I said I am an expert on the Third Reich, is that
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You were claiming expertise by saying that you were doing
19an enormous amount of research on Auschwitz.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Excuse me. Is it not right I did not say I am doing it, I
21have begun recently visiting the archives, is that right?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, and you have ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that immediately? Does one become an instant expert by
24visiting the archives? Is that the inference one is
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You said that your opinion that you were fined for in
1Germany you held as an expert on the Third Reich, which of
2course includes the policy of exterminating the Jews,
3although you may not think so.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Proceeding to page 107, paragraph 3, it is your
5contention, am I right in understanding, that somebody who
6seeks to suggest that the figures have been exaggerated is
7a Holocaust denier?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, that is clearly not true. It is a matter of
9emphasis. As you know, estimates of the figures have
10varied between about 5.1 and 6.1 or over 6 million.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] In the individual operations ----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] So the person who, like Raul Hilberg, whose opinion
13I respect, would say that it is in the sort of low 5
14millions would no doubt think that claims of over 6
15million were exaggerated, but that does not make him a
17 Q. [Mr Irving] I am talking about the component atrocities like their
18shootings and so on.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Are these figures absolutely cast in stone or is it
21possible that any of these individual figures have been
22exaggerated by the officers concerned?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] These are -- we are talking about the Einsatzgruppen
24report, is that right?
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, the body counts by the Einsatzgruppen.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My point here is that you are in paragraph 3, page 107, is
1that you are suggesting without any evidence whatsoever
2that the numbers of Jews killed listed in the
3Einsatzgruppen reports were exaggerated by the task force
4leaders. "Statistics like this are meaningless", I quote
5you as saying. "It is possible that sometimes an
6overzealous SS officer decided to put in a fictitious
8 All this is -- I mean, elsewhere you are
9extremely concerned to have authentic, authenticated
10documentary evidence for what you are saying or for, let
11us say, Hitler's involvement in the extermination of the
12Jews, but here you are indulging in what I think is wild
13speculation unsupported by any documentary evidence at
14all. That is the point I am making in this paragraph.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] So when you see a figure referred to in a decode or in a
16telegram or in a report, you accept that this figure is
17necessarily accurate and there is no need to analyse it
18and investigate the feasibility of such a figure?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I did not say that. I mean, I think obviously one
20looks for documentary evidence which will corroborate it
21or falsify it, but I think that is rather different from
22speculating simply that the officers might have written in
23phoney figures. There is no evidence for it.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Was one of the German Army officers who were put on trial
25after the War by the British for his part in these
26atrocities Field Marshal Von Manstein?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you read the account of his case by Paget QC who was
3his Defence counsel?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to say I have not, no.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That does not stop you asking the next
6question if you want to, although I am not necessarily
8 MR IRVING: I cannot lead evidence. We have had this same
9problem before. I should really bring along the pages and
10put the pages to the witness. That is the only way to do
11it, my Lord, I think.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think anyone would mind if you put
13the next question and just see if you can get an answer
14from Professor Evans.
15 MR IRVING: Very well. If Manstein's Defence counsel in this
16British Army court in Hamburg put it to the prosecutors
17that the Einsatzgruppen did not have the logistical means,
18in terms of manpower and truck space, to carry out the
19killings they claimed to have carried out, would that not
20be justification for casting doubt on the integrity of
21some of the figures?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, not of itself. I mean, I think one would have to look
23at the evidence which was presented of the logistical
24means and weigh it against the evidence for the numbers
26 Q. [Mr Irving] To your knowledge, had any of the historians on the
1Einsatzgruppen carried out this kind of exercise, carried
2out feasibility studies on the numbers?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I cannot answer that in reference to what the Defence said
4in the Manstein trial, but certainly there is a great deal
5of writing about the Einsatzgruppen which goes into
6enormous detail about what they did.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] There is. Do you accept that SS officers would have had a
8motive to try to inflate their achievements in order to
9compare their prowess as opposed to the neighbouring
10Einsatzgruppen, if I can put it like that?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not really know of any evidence for that.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Was there a similar phenomenon in the Vietnam War that you
13are familiar with?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I really do not know.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Moving on to the famous December 1942 document, the report
16to Hitler with the 300,000 figure in it, are you roughly
17familiar, in vague terms, with that document?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not think there is any need to look at it. You
20comment on the fact that I said that I was unhappy about
21it because it is an unusual, isolated document. We are
22now at the top of page 108, my Lord.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I have that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Is a responsible historian not entitled to be unhappy
25about a document if it appears to stick out slightly from
26the rest of the body of documentation?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I think what you -- firstly, this is a habit that
2you have, Mr Irving, of labelling documents that you do
3not like as being orphan documents. In the course of this
4trial in your work you have accumulated enough orphan
5documents to fill half an orphanage. There are many of
6these documents -- I have counted at least half a dozen --
7and the problem is ----
8 Q. [Mr Irving] I do accept the document is genuine.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- when you encounter, when an historian encounters a
10document that runs counter to the thesis that he or she is
11trying to put forward, then you have to take it
12seriously. You do not try to find every possible means
13you can of discrediting it and doing away with it. You
14have to look at it and try to deal with it. That may be
15it that it means you have to revise the views that you
16came to the document with.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Are there not certain questions that a responsible
18historian should put when he is facing a document like
19that look which is egregious, that he should say to
20himself (a) is the document genuine -- well, we have
21decided that it is -- but (b) what about the content of
22the document? Is it serving a particular purpose which is
23not what might at first appear. Should he not ask himself
24questions like that?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think you ask all the questions on all documents. You
26ask the question, who wrote it? What for? Who was it
1addressed to? Is it authentic? And so on.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] And the more remarkable the document, the more unhappy you
3should be, if I can put it like that?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think you look at all documents -- one should look at
5all documents in roughly the same way.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. You comment on the fact that my books do not publish
7photographs of concentration camp victims. I am now on
8paragraph 5, 109.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 109, paragraph 5: "By contrast", you write, "there
11re no pictures of concentration camp or extermination camp
12inmates or victims". Is this a serious criticism of my
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I think you have an illustration section in the 1991
15edition of Hitler's War where you include three
16photographs, but over two entire pages, of the victims of
17allied bombings of German towns, but you have no pictures
18of concentration or extermination camps' inmates or
19victims nor of any of the shootings, and so I add. So
20that does seem to be me to be evidence of imbalance.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Are you suggesting that I should have included the
22drawings by David Olaire which have been figured in this
23case, for example?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not want to go into any particular ones, particular
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you accept ----
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But there are well-known attested photographs of the
2shootings, for example, which you could have included.
3There is a selection of photographs you could well have
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you accept that as a publisher of books where we
6attach importance to high quality photographs, we are
7faced with the problem when it comes to finding
8photographs of concentration camp or extermination camp
9victims or mass shootings?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think that that was your motive for not including
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you accept that there are problems, that the archives
13do not hold such photographs?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I will not accept that. I think there are such
15photographs of photographs.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Are there photographs of unimpeachable quality and
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Quality, some of them, obviously, are not of very high
19quality, but it is still, I think, incumbent on anyone who
20wishes to give a balanced view of who were the victims of
21the Second World War and wants to include photographs of
22them, to try to give a balanced selection of photographs
23on both sides, and not just put the German victims of
24allied bombing raids, and having the only photograph of
25the Nazis' Jewish victims is of a train at Riga, a series
26of passenger carriages, and people handing luggage out of
2 Q. [Mr Irving] We will come back to that picture in a minute. But can I
3ask you, are you familiar with the scandal surrounding the
4German photographic exhibition of atrocity photographs
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The Vermacht Exhibition, yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, what was the complaint about most of those
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It was, well, this is a complex issue because there are
10allegations and counter allegations on both sides.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Has the Exhibition been closed down?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It has been withdrawn for -- the issue here, my Lord, is
13that there has been an exhibition, a travelling
14exhibition, in Germany of crimes of the German Army in the
15Second World War which includes a number of photographs
16which it is now alleged by critics of the Exhibition were
17not, in fact, of victims of the German Army at all, but
18victims of the Russian NKVD; and there are counter
19allegations that these allegations have been brought by
20people with extreme right-wing connections and to
21discredit the view that the German Army was not behaving
23 MR IRVING: I interrupt you there and ask ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I am quite interested in that.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- and it is an extremely, it is a complex issue. But
26I think it is clear that some of the photographs there are
1not genuine photograph and not what they purport to be,
2though it is equally clear that I think that some of them
3most probably are, and the Exhibition has been withdrawn
4in order to try to sort all this out by means of
5research. That does not mean to say, of course, that
6there are no photographs which you could have used.
7 MR IRVING: Is it not true that the Exhibition was finally
8closed as a result of two learned papers published in
9learned journals, one by an Hungarian historian and one by
10a Polish historian?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, and, according to an article in Das Spiegel ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving] And they are not extreme right-wingers?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] According to an article in Das Spiegel, these are two
14people who have extreme right-wing connections. Now, that
15does not necessarily invalidate everything they have said,
16but, as I recall the controversy, that the counter
17argument is that their criterion for what is a crime of
18the German Army is extremely narrow. They will not
19accept, for example, these two authors will not accept,
20that crimes carried out by local units in Lithuania, or
21wherever it might be, at the behest of the German Army are
22crimes of the German Army. So it is a very convoluted
24 But the point at issue is that -- to come back
25to it -- are you really saying that there no pictures, no
26genuine pictures, at all anywhere of any victims of the
1Nazis? You could just as well have put up photographs of
2people who were killed by the Nazis. You could have had a
3photograph of Anne Frank, for example.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The case that is being made is that there are
5no good quality bona fide such photographs. That is what
6you have put, Mr Irving?
7 MR IRVING: Absolutely right, and I am about to move on to the
8justification for that in a second.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I do not accept that there are no bona fide
10photographs is my answer to that and that, irrespective of
11the quality, it does behove a balanced historian who
12wishes to give an objective account of these events to
13include something other than just photographs of the
14victims of allied bombing raids on Hamburg and...
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Before we leave the Exhibition, is it right, have you
16heard it said that the reason why German historians were
17frightened to write the learned pages that would expose
18the Exhibition in the way the Hungarian did is because
19they would then have been prosecuted under German law?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have not heard that, no.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] You accept that the photographs that I published in my
22books, both in the Hitler biography and in the Nuremberg
23history, are original photographs from original negatives,
24do you accept that?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It looks like it, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] The photograph which you object to, a photograph of a
1train load of Jews at Riga station -- it might be useful
2if his Lordship sees the photograph?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not saying it is not genuine.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I remember it really.
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am really not saying it is not genuine. Nowhere do
6I say that.
7 MR IRVING: Will you accept the photograph was given to me from
8an album taken ----
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not doubting its genuineness.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, it is perfectly OK.
11 MR IRVING: It is a question of the selection of the photograph
12and the reason I selected that rather than one of the more
13traditional pictures which you are familiar with.
14 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship might care to look at the file copy.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I was reminding myself why it is there.
16 MR RAMPTON: The file copy has been skewed because one of the
17pages is the wrong way round. Can I pass up a copy of the
19 MR IRVING: I am indebted to you. While that is being passed,
20if I can explain, perhaps, by way of a question that
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I have got it, but maybe I am wrong.
23 MR IRVING: My Lord, the son of one of those policemen, you can
24see on the platform at Riga ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have it.
26 MR IRVING: The sone of one of those German policemen on the
1platform at Riga has the album of his father, and he
2provided me with the original negatives to make those
3prints from. That is why I have picked that particular
4photograph. It is an identifiable event, an identifiable
5train load of Jews, arriving at Riga. I do not know what
6happened to them. One I can only fear the worst for them.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But there is something in the text, I think,
8about the photograph, is there not, or about this
10 MR IRVING: This is five days after the famous Bruns episode,
11my Lord, of November 30th.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I probably have this wrong, but do you not
13somewhere say that the photographic evidence does not bear
14out the notion of cattle trucks and ----
15 MR IRVING: I did not say that, no, my Lord. The only comment
16there you will find is whatever the caption says.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You certainly do not say it in the caption.
18 MR IRVING: I certainly do not say it in the caption, and I do
19not think we do deny that there were cattle trucks used in
20the later stages of this atrocity.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, it is simply that you do not mention it in your
23 MR IRVING: In the caption, of course, I can only point out
24what is in this photograph. In the Nuremberg book, if
25I can just jump on one or two pages of your -- do you wish
26to make a comment?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, that is all right.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, what you do say in the text -- I have
3just found it; it is all a bit jumbled up in the copy --
4"A rare original photograph shows the next train load of
51,200 Jews leaving for Riga. Except for one uniformed SD
6officer near the third open carriage door, the escorts are
7all elderly German police officers with two Latvian police
8in the right foreground".
9 MR IRVING: Which rather bears out, my Lord, what one of those
10decodes said that a train load of 1,000 or 900 Jews was
11going escorted by 14 local policemen, if you remember?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is the point you are trying to make with
13this photograph, is it not?
14 MR IRVING: No, my Lord. A picture is worth 1,000 words which
15is one reason why I have supplied so many pictures to your
16Lordship rather than documents.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
18 MR IRVING: It is an original photograph, high quality
19photograph, of the tragedy actually happening, and it is a
20photograph of unquestionable authenticity that was
21supplied to me by one of the policemen's sons.
22 The allegation against me on page 109 is that
23this only picture shows an orderly scene (as though I had
24deliberately picked a photograph with an orderly scene) of
25passenger carriages and people handing luggage out of
26windows, no brutality, no herding and no whips. Well,
1I am sorry. Are you suggesting that I should have
2abandoned this photograph and looked for a more hackneyed
3stereotyped photograph, Professor?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am afraid I am, yes. I think that you should have
5balanced out your picture, your extremely gruesome
6pictures which you put in the book of victims, emotive
7pictures of victims of the bombing raids, including a dead
8child clutching the body of an adult over -- a very large
9reproduced picture. I think you should have balanced that
10with pictures of the victims of the Nazis. If you only
11look at the pictures section, the impression given is
12that, well, how jolly nice this train is at Riga, what a
13nice time they are having?
14 Q. [Mr Irving] On the contrary, is that not a picture of the utter
15banality of this kind of atrocity, that there are people
16handing baggage out of windows and stepping on to a
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry, there is no mention of any atrocity there in the
19caption at all.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So how do you react to the suggestion that
21the reason for not including the sort of picture you have
22just been describing is the utter banality of those kinds
23of photographs? I think that was the suggestion.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. I find that very hard to accept, that pictures of,
25let us say, the victim, people about to be shot by the
26Einsatzgruppen lining up in front of a ditch are banal
1pictures. It does not matter how many times they are
2reproduced, they still remain, I think, very shocking.
3 MR IRVING: Professor Evans, how often have you seen pictures
4in my books that are familiar to you from other people's
5books? Never? Once?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Plenty of portraits, I think, which I am familiar with.
7You include lots of portraits of individuals which are
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Colour ones or black and white?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Some of these pictures are not familiar. I am not
11disputing that these original pictures that you got, that
12they are very high quality, and so on. What I am talking
13about is the balance of the presentation and, indeed, the
15 Q. [Mr Irving] You wanted me to include the fact that travel without food
16and water, for example, if I look at the second line from
17the end of that paragraph?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not if they did not, no.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] The evidence is from the decodes that they did, that they
20had the food and water they needed for these journeys?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That the people who travelled in the autumn of 1941 on
22these particular trains did, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] But that is what this picture shows, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I am not saying you should not have included that
25picture. I am saying that you should have had a balanced
1 Q. [Mr Irving] I should have skewed it the other way?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not a question of skewing; it is question of
3balance. What you have is an illustration section with
4some very good pictures, original ones that I have not
5seen before, absolutely authentic, rare, and so on. But
6that these give the impression, the way they are
7cumulatively arranged, that there were massive numbers of
8victims of allied bombings, and that that is, as you say,
948,000 people died in devastating Holocaust in Hamburg.
10You are trying to establish, at the very least, I think,
11an equivalence, and the impression given by the imbalanced
12selection of pictures is that it is more -- that the
13bombing of German cities is a more serious crime than the
14killing of millions of Jews. That is what I take from
15your -- not having seen it before, that is what I take it
16from your illustration section.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there no equivalence between these crimes -- not on any
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The question is that the bombing by allied
20planes of German cities is morally equivalent to the
21extermination that Professor Evans believes took place, is
22that the question?
23 MR IRVING: In certain circumstances it was and that is
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is your reaction to that, Professor
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I find that a very difficult question to answer. I am not
2a moral philosopher.
3 MR IRVING: Do you not later on in your report say that it is
4totally wrong for me to suggest that Dresden would now be
5a war crime if it was repeated?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think you say that, you say that it is a
7certified war crime, I do not believe it has been
8certified as a war crime. That is not to say that
9I approve of it, but we are not really dealing here with
10the moral issues or with what happened. We are dealing
11with your presentation. In my view, this selection of
12illustrations is imbalanced.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, go to the next book then, "Nuremberg, the Last
14Battle", where once again you find fault with my selection
15of illustrations, although on this occasion I have
16included victims of what can loosely be called the
17Holocaust. I have obtained from a German sale an original
18soldier's album from the Balkans showing these German
19soldiers brutally stringing up obviously defenceless
20civilians and hanging them. They are the most brutal
21photographs I have ever seen. They are nightmare
22photographs. Yet here too you find fault with what I have
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me just read your captions: "Punished",
25headline, "... snapshots from a German soldier's photo
26album. The daily routine of a cruel warfare in the
1Balkans. A German soldier is found mutilated. The German
2troops take reprisals stringing up the men folk in the
3village like washing on a line. One by one, a chair
4kicked away ... (reading to the words) ... and then
5painful death by strangulation. For crimes like these,
6German Generals are executed at Nuremberg ..."
7 Second heading: "And unpunished. No Allied
8General is ever called to account for the appalling fire
9raids on Japan, above, or Dresden, left and below. In
10each of these 1945 raids about 100,000 innocent civilians
11are burned alive", and we know that that is a grossly
12exaggerated figure, "in what is now only universally
13recognised as a crime against international law" which
14I do not believe it is.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will leave that one -- we will not chase
17 MR IRVING: Professor, you are not an expert on international
18law. I have a lot of evidence that it is, my Lord, but I
19am not going to put it to the court.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will not chase that one. I think it is
21not the point.
22 MR IRVING: Yes, but on the photographs here again, it seems I
23just cannot do right. My Lord, you do not have the
24photographs in front of you, do you?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but I think this is not an unimportant
26point, I think I can get them quite easily. I know
1exactly the ones that are being referred to.
2 MR IRVING: Yes. It is a whole page of photographs, snapshots
3from a soldier's album showing the reprisals they have
4taken against these people in a Balkan village.
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, you do make it clear that they are reprisals for what
6you call the mutilation of a German soldier.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] And I do have to admit that I have not published the most
8gruesome photographs for obvious reasons of taste.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That did not stop you publishing the photographs of the
10victims of the Hamburg bombing raid.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Believe me, the ones that I did not publish in the
12Nuremberg book were unpublishable.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] What I am trying to establish here is that you are trying
14to set up an equivalence between the two sides in order to
15diminish the importance of the Nazi extermination of the
17 Q. [Mr Irving] If an author has ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And, indeed, I mean, in some sense, I think these captions
19and illustrations do have the effect of suggesting that
20what the Allies did was worse than what the Germans did.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Worse?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because they got away with it scott-free.
24 MR IRVING: If an author has sincerely held views ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And because the pictures are more -- have larger numbers,
26more gruesome, and so on.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] If an author has sincerely held views on the morality of
2what both sides did in World War II, by way of killing
3innocent people and civilians, is this grounds for him to
4be held up to public ridicule and opprobrium and obloquy?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] This is systematic distortion, I think, in your
6presentation of these pictures, the selection that you
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Is not the systematic distortion that practised by those
9who have suppressed the evidence of crimes that the Allies
10committed during World War II? I do not really want to go
11far down this particular road, his Lordship will not allow
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not here to defend the bombing of Dresden and the
14bombing of Hamburg, goodness knows. I do not think that
15these have been suppressed at all. There has been an
16enormous amount of debate and discussion about these and
17passionately argued on both sides.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] What about an author's right to write about it if he has
19these views sincerely, can he do so without fear ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think an author has ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving] --- of being labelled a Holocaust denier?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I think an author has a view to try to maintain a
23certain balance when talking about the atrocities, to use
24that word, committed on both sides.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And I do not think you do that.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Have I not had a record ever since my very first book
2of speaking out against this kind of air warfare right up
3to the present day in Kosovo, and does this not entitle me
4to adopt a kind of moral equivalency between the two
5crimes, although, obviously, there is no comparison on
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, but what you are doing is to try to establish, both
8in terms of numbers as I am arguing in this action and in
9terms of the atrocities, the impression to your readership
10and your audience that the allied bombing of German cities
11was as bad as or worse than the Nazi killing of Jews in
12Auschwitz and elsewhere. That is really what this is
14 Q. [Mr Irving] In a few pages' time you say, "On one particular night we
15only killed 17,000 people by burning them alive in 20
16minutes", is that right?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Could you point me to that passage?
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 114.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Line 5, you are suggesting that killing 17,600 people by
21burning them alive in the space of 20 minutes is in some
22way, I do not know, not a crime?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. What I say here is that ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Read it out, would you, Professor Evans,
25since that suggestion is being put?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I will read that out, yes. This refers back to a
1lengthy quote on the previous page where you talk about
225,000 people being killed in 25 minutes in Pforzheim by
3an allied air raid in 25 minutes, and in Auschwitz there
4were 25,000 killed in four years. "When you put things
5into perspective like that, it diminishes their Holocaust
6- that word with a capital letter", "their" meaning ,
7presumably, the Jews.
8 I point out in the passage that you cite that
9your equivalence does not stand up to examination, quite
10apart from the gross minimization of the Auschwitz figures
11because you exaggerate the number of deaths caused by the
12Pforzheim raid, which was estimated in a report of the
13Statistical Office of the City of Pforzheim in 1954 not as
1425,000 or 27,000, as you claim, but as 17,600. So you are
15deliberately trying to say 25,000, 25,000, and, in fact,
16it is not that equivalence at all.
17 That does not mean to say that I justify the
18bombing of Pforzheim; that does not come into it at all.
19I am simply trying to talk about the way that you present
21 MR IRVING: Can we just go back to Nuremberg, please? You
22suggest that at the end of paragraph 8 on page 110 that
23the way I juxtaposed those photographs was intended to
24imply to the careless reader that the perpetrators of the
25atrocities were Jews, that the atrocities were committed
26by Jews and that they were getting their -- is there any
1justification at all for this suggestion?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. It seems to me that that is what seems to be the
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I had better have a look at that.
5 MR IRVING: I think your Lordship ought to have a look at it
6because it is a serious allegation.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I could not find the photographs.
8 MR RAMPTON: My Lord ----
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is between 182 and 183.
10 MR RAMPTON: In Nuremberg it is after 182.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that. Where does it come in the
12great wodge of photographs?
13 MR RAMPTON: It is after a panorama of Nuremberg Defendants
14with somebody or other giving a -- Robert H Jackson giving
15a speech for the Prosecution, I think.
16 MR IRVING: I will have the actual book brought tomorrow, your
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton has it; I may have to look at it
19because I have a slight feeling that ----
20 MR RAMPTON: It is worth looking at the original actually, if
21I may suggest it?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have a feeling the photograph has not for
23some reason found its way into my ----
24 MR RAMPTON: I think the witness should have it too.
25 MR IRVING: Again the quality of the photographs is
26remarkable. They are original colour photographs to the
1Nuremberg trials and this is the standard I am going for.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is not really the point, is it?
3 MR IRVING: Well, it is the basis I make the selection of books
4that I publish.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Actually, I would rather look at the
6original. Well, the point that Professor Evans is making
7is, obviously, in reference to the photograph on the
8left-hand side under the text and they do have a Jewish
10 MR IRVING: Undoubtedly, they are Jews. Undoubtedly, they are
11also being swept up into the general Holocaust on that
12site. But I think to suggest that by the juxtaposition of
13the photographs I had implied in any way at all that they
14were guilty for whatever had befallen the German troops or
15whatever, that is perverse and unjustified and certainly
16unintentional on my part.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well the caption does say: "A German soldier is found
18mutilated. The German troops take reprisals".
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. But, as you know, the reprisal is just swept up, a
20round number of males in the area and liquidated them,
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is a question of what the captions and the pictures
24 Q. [Mr Irving] But nowhere is it suggested in the caption that the Jewish
25victims on those pictures have been picked for that
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, it is a matter of suggestion really. It was what the
2pictures suggest. I mean, of their very nature pictures
3are suggestive, captions are short. As you say, they are
4very powerful -- worth a thousand words.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] To summarise, before we move on, this is a page of
6photographs of victims of the Nazis, is that right?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I believe I say so, yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] So that your suggestion in the previous book that I do not
9publish photographs of the victims of the Nazis does not
10always hold up?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I say you -- in the previous book I mention that you
12have a picture of the train at Riga. That is the only
13picture of the Nazis' Jewish victims to set aside several
14extremely graphic pictures of the victims of allied
16 Q. [Mr Irving] So, somebody who is minimizing something like that in
17their books is a Holocaust denier, is that part of the
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] What you are trying to do -- all of this is about your
20attempt to establish an equivalence between the two, as it
21were, to suggest that essentially all sides in the Second
22World War committed crimes of some dimensions. That is
23what we are really talking about. I think that is an
24element in Holocaust denial.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] In Sir Winston Churchill's books, were there any
26photographs at all of train loads of Jews at Riga or
1anywhere else on his History of the Second World War, six
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not recall. I am not sure I see the relevance of
4that in any case to what you do in your books.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] That is for his Lordship to decide. If someone like Sir
6Winston Churchill writes a six-volume history without
7mentioning the Holocaust or the killing of Jews in seven
8line, does that make him a Holocaust denier or does it
9mean times have now changed?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we can do better than take time with
12 MR IRVING: We can indeed, my Lord, we are now going to come to
13a little piece of gold on page 111. In paragraph 10 you
14accuse me once again of exaggerating the numbers killed in
15allied bombing raids. The number of Germans killed in
16allied bombing raids, is that correct?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, that is right.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] But you do not distort documents or quotations in order to
19justify that kind of allegation?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not sure what you are referring to here.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] All will shortly become plain. Will you go to the next
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Here you say on page 441 of Goebbels: "He describes the
25numbers of those killed in the bombing raid on Hamburg on
2627, 26, 28 July 1943 as 'nearly 50,000'".
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] That was the big fire storm, was it not, that summer?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, that is right.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Operation Gomorrah, the British call it?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, it is 48,000 in the captions of Hitler's War which
6I cite on page 109.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Is 48,000 a number that you had seen regularly in
8connection with air raid victims in Hamburg, that
9operation, the fire storm raids?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I go into this in the same paragraph, that the
11probable number, the generally agreed number is between
1235,000 and 40,000, that 74,000, or nearly twice 74,000 as
13you put in a letter to The Spectator in 1989, is a wild
15 Q. [Mr Irving] So you rely entirely on that letter to The Spectator, do
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, 50,000, I do not know where you get the figure from.
18It is plucked out of the air of 48,000.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] So in 1989 you say he put it far higher than I did,
20claiming that, while 74,000 people had died at
21Auschwitz, "nearly twice as many died in the July 1943
22RAF Dacken Hamburg"?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] That is the quotation from my letter to The Spectator, is
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we have a look at that letter to The Spectator; it is
2worth having a look at?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where do we find it?
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is in your bundle.
5 MR IRVING: It is not in my letter. I do not know. If we
6are lucky, it is in the bundle.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think we will get it from E12, page
8312, will we not?
9 MR IRVING: I do want to see it.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think that is fair.
11 MR IRVING: Otherwise, I can tell you from memory what the
12actual quotation is.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to see it, I am afraid.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] You have to see it, you are afraid?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Otherwise, I will tell you from memory and I will bring
17the letter in tomorrow. There is only one word missing.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can anyone on the Defendant's side help?
19 MR RAMPTON: We are trying, my Lord; it is a chase to find
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The trouble is if we come back to it then we
22have to start all over again, that is the problem.
23 MR RAMPTON: I agree. Let me put it like this. If the word
24"as" was in after the word "many", would that change the
25meaning of that sentence?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, of course it would.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] If it said, "nearly twice as many as died in the July 1943
2air raid", would that change the meaning?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, of course. That would make it 30, 37, is that
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Would it totally deflate the point of the whole paragraph
6and the paragraph before, as far as exaggerating air raid
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, it would not, because you describe, you give the
9number as nearly 50,000 on page 441 of Goebbels.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Is not the commonly accepted figure for these series of
11air raids on Hamburg 48,000?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. It is between 35,000 and 40,000.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] On page 2, I am sorry, the next page, 112, line 2, you say
1431,647 dead had been found?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] And you are familiar with the pictures of what it looked
17like inside bunkers?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, indeed.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] The flat tyres, the little heaps of ash which had been
20human beings? Have you seen the photographs on the
21streets of the heaps ash?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed I have. I take it that that is why official German
23estimates at the time put the total as somewhat higher at
2435,000 or even 40,000.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] And you have never seen a figure of 48,000?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Only in your work.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you read the official history of the strategic air
2offensive against Germany by Nobel Frankland and Martin
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, but I am relying here on work produced in Hamburg by
6 Q. [Mr Irving] You do accept, though, that if my version of that
7quotation is correct and you accidently or otherwise
8omitted the word "as", your entire argument that I have
9doubled the number of people is unjustified and you are
10going to have to withdraw that, are you not?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, because, as I say here, I cite it from Eatwell.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] So we will put the blame on Professor Eatwell?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, if indeed the word "as" is missing.
14 MR RAMPTON: We cannot find it in the Eatwell documents. I am
15sorry, it is not in the Evans' documents.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In Eatwell book?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. It is in an article.
18 MR RAMPTON: We will check that.
19 MR IRVING: I have the actual original Spectator letter at
20home. I know that, my Lord, I was looking at it last
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Bring it in if you would not mind. We are
23not going to be able to track it down today.
24 MR IRVING: If your Lordship thinks it is relevant.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think in fairness to you, if Professor
26Evans has misinterpreted what you said, I think it is
1right that I should know that. I do not think this is a
2point that is at the heart of the case, but in fairness to
3you, you ought to have the opportunity to show it to me.
4 MR IRVING: It is at the heart of the allegation that I happily
5double air raid figures to make a point.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is one aspect of a broader point
7that Professor Evans is making ----
8 MR IRVING: Yes.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- about what is described, rather
10inappropriately, as moral equivalence.
11 MR IRVING: Also it is useful at various other levels all the
12way down to how easy it is to make simple errors that can
13totally innocently reverse the meaning of a document.
14This literally reverses the meaning of that particular
15document, the one word.
16 So all the rest of that paragraph about the
17probable number, therefore, is between 35,000 and 40,000
18(I am on page 112 like 7), "Irving's wildly invariably
19categorical statements of 48,000", just like today I still
20say 48,000, nearly 50,000 or nearly twice 74,000, that of
21course is the wrong bit, is it not?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] If that is that true of course it is wrong, yes, and I
23would withdraw it.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I really think we have probably got
25everything we possibly could out of that paragraph.
26 MR IRVING: Moving on to the next paragraph, we are now dealing
1with the number of people who I suggested unequivocally
2can be shown as having died in Auschwitz, in the last line
3I say: "Around 100,000 dead in that brutal slave labour
4camp", and, Professor, you take exception to that
5sentence, do you not?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] You think the figure should be much closer to 1 million
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] About that, yes. Slightly more.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] No doubt 20 years ago you would have said the figure would
11be closer to 4 million?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not 20 years ago, no.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] No?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think so.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] So you would have discounted what the memorial said?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] We have already been through this, but that was the
17product of immediate postwar circumstances when not a
18great deal was known.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] You do not just go with what the prevailing wind suggests
20is the latest figure; you do your own independent thinking
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not a specialist on Auschwitz, Mr Irving. So
23I accept what is the general consensus of scholarship on
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Yet if anybody does try to analyse the figures on the
26basis of other sources than what the memorial says or what
1the Auschwitz State Museum says or what Sir Martin Gilbert
2says, he is a denier?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, it is not a question of just what they say. There
4is a very large, substantial amount of work. This court
5has been spent several days going through a whole mass of
6evidence about Auschwitz.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but it is the word "analyse" I am looking at. If you
8look at page 113, paragraphs 13 and 14, I say: "Anybody
9who wants to analyse any part of the Holocaust story is
10dismissed and smeared as an anti-semite or at the other
11end of the scale a pro-Hitler apologist and a Nazi
12apologist." You then comment in paragraph 14: "Analyse
13here is a synonym for refute or deny"?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, that seems to me it is. It is a euphemism. You are
15very careful to avoid the word "denial" as much as you
16can, or you have been in what you have written and said
17about the Holocaust, but clearly as it stands this
18statement is absurd. Historians are analysing the
19Holocaust story all the time.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] But are they?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It goes on massively.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Are they analysing figures all the time?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. There is an enormous amount of work that is in
24progress. There are hundreds of historians working on
25this. There are large institutions which are devoted to
26analysing all different parts of the Holocaust story, and
1nobody is dismissing them as anti-semites or Nazi
2apologists. What you have here is "analysed" as a
3euphemism for "deny".
4 Q. [Mr Irving] So analysing is all right until we look at the figures and
5then it becomes denial?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. Historians are looking at the figures all time.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] What kind of historian do you have to be then to avoid
8that word "denial"? Do you have to avoid my name or do
9you have to be left-wing or what?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is semantic. We know what the
11definition of Holocaust denier is as contended for by the
12Defendants. The issue we are trying to explore is whether
13you, Mr Irving, fit that definition. I really think
14semantic discussions of this kind are unhelpful.
15 MR IRVING: I was scene setting with a broad brush, and now we
16are going to start getting out the small sable and start
17painting in some of the detail.
18 Professor, if there are either logical
19calculations that you make or there are bodies of
20documents that you can make which would enable one to
21reassess the figures, I am avoiding the word "analyse"
22now, but to reassess the figures, would that be a
23justifiable exercise for any historian of whatever colour?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, certainly. For example, new material is becoming
25available or has become available since the collapse of
26the Soviet Union in East European archives which has
1helped in reassessments.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. In about 19899 Soviet Union released the death
3books, did they not, of Auschwitz relating not to all the
4years but some of the years?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right, yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you expect these death books, the registers of
7deaths of people in Auschwitz, to have provided some kind
8of impetus to this calculation?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They are certainly a significant document, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] I am avoiding the use of the word "analyse". It would be
11justifiable to look at those records for any person and
12try to do some kind of meaningful calculation and try to
13work out whether these were comprehensive,
14all-encompassing death books, or whether they were only
15part of the body of Auschwitz or what?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes. You have to remember, of course, that those
17large numbers of people who were taken straight to the gas
18chambers on their arrival at Auschwitz were not entered in
19the camp registers, and so do not appear in the death
21 Q. [Mr Irving] This is an important part of the Holocaust history, is it
22not, the notion that a large number of people arrived at
23the camp, were unloaded and were sent straight to their
24deaths in the gas chambers, is that correct?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] What kind of people were they?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is described as more than a notion.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] What kind of people were then selected for death?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I am not an expert on Auschwitz, but my
4understanding is that the process of selection generally
5tended to take into the camp or register in the camp those
6who were considered to be capable of working and those who
7were not, particularly women and children, were sent to
8the gas chambers.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Women and children were sent to the gas chambers.
10Professor, will you have a look at page 35 I think it is
11in my bundle, the little bundle you were handed this
12morning? It is another of these pictures speaking louder
13than words things again. Is that a photograph showing
14people standing behind barbed wire?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] What kind of age are those people?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is very difficult to say. They look like -- it is
18difficult to say. One or two children, some adolescence.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Does the caption provided by Associated Press say: This
20is somebody standing among a group of children?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] When the camp was liberated by the Red Army?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Why would they have had children in the camp?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There could have been any one of a number of reasons.
26I mean some children were retained for medical
1experimentation, that is a particular reason. There were
2numbers of allegedly or so-called pure bred gypsy children
3who were kept. There were a number of reasons.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there any indication on the caption that these were the
5experimental ones or the gypsy ones?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I really could not say.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] It just says there were children who were in the camp at
8the time of the liberation?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There is no indication of what they are doing there or why
10they were there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] You said also the ones who were sick were also selected
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] On the whole, yes.
14 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I think this is really a little unfair.
15Professor Evans is not a Holocaust expert. Professor van
16Pelt has already told your Lordship, which Mr Irving knows
17perfectly well, that the gas chambers ceased operation in
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, Professor Evans on page 114 has gone in
20some detail into the death books.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. My own feeling is that we went into all
22these questions, particularly the camp registers, in great
23deal with Professor van Pelt. You are right in saying
24that Professor Evans does mention gas chambers in
25Auschwitz, but he has told you he does not regard himself
26as a great expert, besides which Mr Rampton's last
1observation does seem to be a fair one, does it not?
2 MR IRVING: I completely endorse this, and I always bow to Mr
3Rampton's wisdom which is far superior ----
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You do not need to do that.
5 MR RAMPTON: I have no wisdom but I have a wizard short-term
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is right, is it not, that the gas chambers
8ceased to exist when they were really destroyed in 1944,
9so that if there were transports including women and
10children you would expect to find them within the barbed
11wire at Auschwitz in 1945?
12 MR IRVING: They must have arrived then as children and they
13must have avoided selection somehow as children.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may be that the selection process stopped
15when the gas chambers disappeared.
16 MR IRVING: If your Lordship will rule that this witness should
17not be asked questions about Auschwitz, then I will
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I cannot do that, because he has referred
20to Auschwitz in his report and therefore he is, it seems
21to me, amenable to cross-examination on that topic. But
22if I were you, I really would not bother to cover the same
23ground, because you cross-examined Professor van Pelt ----
24 MR IRVING: I agree, but I am in difficulties because this
25witness has covered the same ground, particularly in his
26footnote, for example, No. 13 where he says: "As we have
1seen, the camp records did not include those killed or
2shortly on arrival".
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know. That is why I am not going to rule
4out this cross-examination, but I say again, the bits that
5matter in Professor Evans' report start in, I am afraid it
6is still 30 pages time when he starts to make the
7historians' criticisms of you, and that is the meat of his
8report. But I cannot stop you, it seems to me. I can
9encourage you to take it quickly.
10 MR IRVING: Which is what I am doing.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I can suggest you might not think it really
12worth doing at all.
13 MR IRVING: My Lord, this is short track I am taking at
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
16 MR IRVING: If I could take you now to page 115, we are now
17going to deal with Professor Hinsley. On paragraph 16 you
18say Hinsley did not claim that nearly all the deaths were
19due to disease. Professor Hinsley is of course a
20recognized authority, he is not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He was, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] He is an official British historian of the British
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He was, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] In volume 2 of his work he published an appendix, did he
26not, on the police decodes?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] In the first line you write, in paragraph 16: "All he
3wrote was that the British decrypts of encoded radio
4messages sent from Auschwitz did not mention gassings",
5but in fact if you look at your footnote 18 on the next
6page he is slightly more specific, is he not? He says:
7"The returns from Auschwitz, the largest of the camps
8with 20,000 prisoners, mentioned illness as the main cause
9of death", is that correct?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] "It included references to shootings and hangings", and
12then he continues: "There were no references in the
13decrypts to gassing".
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am sorry, I am going to
15interrupt you because I think we may be able to take this
16a bit more shortly. Professor van Pelt said, well, that
17probably is right and it is not very surprising because
18the decrypts were talking about what was going on in the
19camps, and the whole point about the gassing was that it
20was not going on in the camps in that sense. Mr Rampton,
21am I wrong about that?
22 MR RAMPTON: That is absolutely right.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That was what he said?
24 MR RAMPTON: That is absolutely right.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Therefore, this point -- I am not saying it
26is not a good point on Hinsley and the decrypts, but that
1is the explanation we have had so far.
2 MR IRVING: I must have nodded when Professor van Pelt said
3that, my Lord, because if he had said that I would
4certainly queried that and said: Well, where were the
5gassings takings place then?
6 MR RAMPTON: I can also tell your Lordship, to save coming back
7to it, this comes from Mr Irving's website, that on 13th
8September 1941 Deluge, who was the Chief of the Order
9Police, sent a message to the forces in Russia about
10confidentiality and he said this: "That information which
11is containing State secrets calls for especially secret
12treatment. Into this category fall exact figures
13executions. These are to be sent by courier".
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but that is another point. Am I wrong
15about what I recall Professor van Pelt having said?
16 MR RAMPTON: No, you are absolutely right. What van Pelt,
17amongst others, has said, it is in his report and I think
18he also said it in the witness box, is you would not
19expect to find details of the gassings on the decrypts for
20two reasons. First, because it was secret, as this
21message suggests, but much more important because the
22people who were gassed on arrival were never registered
23and would not have been subject of the codes anyway.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I thought he had said that. We can look
25up the reference if you are doubtful.
26 MR IRVING: My Lord, that was a horrendous interruption
1Mr Rampton and I withdraw the nice remarks I said earlier.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not upset Mr Rampton, but I had rather
3encouraged that, I am afraid it is my fault.
4 MR IRVING: Deluge was only referring to the shootings on the
5Eastern Front. Deluge was only responsible for the
6shootings on the Eastern Front. He was in no way
7responsible for the concentration camp system which came
8under a completely different hierarchy. I am sure
9Mr Rampton knows that.
10 MR RAMPTON: No, the point is the same.
11 MR IRVING: But I will move on from there because clearly we
12are not going to ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you want to take a short break, Mr Irving,
14at any stage you only have to ask. You know that, do you
16 MR IRVING: Can we move on to page 118. We are getting very
17close now to the ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
19 MR IRVING: You refer to the aerial photographs, but, witness,
20you are not an expert on Auschwitz, so there is no point
21really asking you about this at all, is there? I mean all
22the statements you made about Auschwitz and in these 180
23pages so far are, effectively, off the top of your head,
24because you have not studied it to the same degree other
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not making statements about Auschwitz. I am making
1statements here about what you write about Auschwitz, and
2this is a particular section here which is, if I can find
3the beginning of it, about the figures, the numbers
4killed, and I am trying to go through what you write about
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Are you not familiar with the history of the
7operation of the Haganah in Germany after World War II?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I am not. My point here is that you claim that the
9Jews who disappeared did not die but were secretly
10transported to Palestine by the Haganah and given new
11identities, rather than have being killed in Auschwitz.
12I have to say I find that quite a fantastic suggestion for
13which you provide no documentary basis, even though in
14other areas, as we have seen repeatedly, you demand the
15most strictest criteria of documentary support for any
16statements made about the Nazis policy towards the Jews
17and what happened to the Jews and so on.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Would it fair to expand that sentence that you have just
19read out slightly: He has, for instance, claimed that
20some of the Jews who disappeared, because obviously I am
21not claiming that all Jews disappeared went to Palestine?
22What you meant there was that I am saying that some of the
23Jews or a part of or a large part of the Jews but not all
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I would have to go back to what you wrote there.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Clearly I have not suggested that all the Jews who
1disappeared went to Palestine, have I? Do you agree?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am afraid I would have to go back and check. I mean
3where have the bodies gone from -- "There is no trace in
4Allies' aerial photographs of mass graves in Auschwitz.
5Where have the bodies gone?" You have supplied more than
6one answer. So, these answers may cover different groups
7of Jews of course.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. So you accept then that I am talking about a part of
9the missing Jews?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, the implication in what you write is clearly it is a
11very significant part, as again your claim that some of
12the missing Jews had fled to Dresden and were killed in
13the February 1945 bombing raid.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we just stay with the Palestine ones? You say that
15you are not familiar with the operations of the Haganah in
16Germany after World War II, operating in conjunction with
17UNRRA, the Refugee and Relief Agency?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I am not, no. You do not provide any evidence that
19they were secretly transported to Palestine by the
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you accept that there is a very lengthy report on the
22operations of the Haganah in the American Government
23archives about 250,000 pages long by the Military Governor
24of Germany describing how ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Mr Irving, I am concerned with what you write here and
26what you write is a suggestion which is unsupported by
1anything like that, that large numbers of Jews were
2secretly transported to Palestine by the Haganah and given
3new identities, therefore, rendered untraceable, and did
4not die in Auschwitz and other extermination camps or were
5not shot and killed.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] So you maintain that this did not happen? You are casting
7doubt on it?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I am not talking about what happened and what did not
9happen. I am talking about what you present as having
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And the evidence for that?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] And the evidence.
13 MR IRVING: Yes, but I just tried to put to him this lengthy
14report in the American Government archives and the witness
15interrupted me halfway through.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am sorry. What I am trying to say is that irrespective
17of that, you do not cite that as evidence. You are simply
18suggesting, as it seems to me out of thin air, that large
19numbers of Jews were secretly transported to Palestine and
20did not die in Auschwitz.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you accept that I do not write passages like that out
22of thin air?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] That in fact I probably have a very good source which for
25one reason or another I have not identified?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I am sorry, I will not.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, you believe that I write this out of thin
2air, that I make it up?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not see any evidence that you have not made it up.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] And you are not prepared to accept my suggestion that
5there is this very lengthy report in the US National
6archives on the operations of the Haganah written by the
7American Military Governor?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, you can suggest whatever you like now. The point is
9what I am doing is looking in here, in this report, is
10looking at what you have written and said in the past and
11the documentary support or otherwise that you have adduced
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Let us approach from another angle then, Professor. You
14are aware of the fact that there are now substantial
15claims being made against the Swiss and American and
16German companies and so on for compensation? Have you any
17idea how many Holocaust survivors are now claiming
18compensation, a figure?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not know. It depends what you mean by Holocaust
20survivors as well.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, if I say that the number of claimants is 450,000 now
22at the end of the 20th century, the beginning of the 21st
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know where you get that figure
25from. I think Professor Evans is entitled to say, well,
26on what basis are they claiming? Are they claiming
1because they were in Auschwitz, in some other camp, or
2perhaps in no camp at all, they were dispossessed by the
4 MR IRVING: If they are Jewish Holocaust survivors, my Lord,
5and there is that number of them extant at the end of the
620th century, then you can do actuCourier calculations
7backwards to work out roughly how many would have
8survived, given certain obvious adjustments you have to
9make for age and so on, that the older ones would have
10stayed behind, the younger ones would have emigrated, and
11you can come up with ball park figures. But the Professor
12has not done this kind of calculations, so there is no
13point asking him.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But your suggestion, therefore, is that these
15are 450,000 true Holocaust survivors in the sense that
16they come from one death camp or another?
17 MR IRVING: They were Jews who were subject to the Holocaust as
18I defined it, which is one more reason why my definition
19is the right one, that they were Jews who were subjected
20to the Nazi atrocities during the period of the Third
21Reich of whatever kind.
22 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, I simply do not understand this. If
23this is about claims against Swiss Banks who are holding
24or have held property taken from victims of the Holocaust,
25we might be talking about the great grandchildren of
26people who survived who had a claim on the property.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what was going through my mind.
2 MR IRVING: And also the slave labourers, the great
3grandchildren of the slave labourers cannot claim
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us go back to where we started. You were
6suggesting that the bulk, or a very large proportion, of
7the people in Auschwitz disappeared because they went
8secretly to Israel and I think Professor Evans ----
9 MR IRVING: My Lord, I have not said either the bulk or a very
10large portion. I just said part. This is what I was
11trying to nail the witness down on when he says, "Irving
12claimed that the Jews who disappeared did not die", what
13he meant by the Jews. Obviously it does not mean all of
14them. He is meaning part of them.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Leave aside the exact number. He is saying
16that he does not accept that there was any evidence for
17that statement, and I have not got clear when you first
18saw this report you have talked about by the Haganah.
19When did you first see that?
20 MR IRVING: Seven or eight years ago my Lord.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was that the source for your claim?
22 MR IRVING: Yes, very definitely.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And that says? What is its conclusion in
24terms of numbers?
25 MR IRVING: The American Military Forces described how the
26Haganah, operating in conjunction with the United Nations
1Rescue and Relief Agency, visited all the displaced
2persons camps, very well organized, with walkie-talkie
3radios and trucks picking up all the Jewish victims from
4those camps, loading them on board, and then they vanished
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: My question was really about numbers. How
7many are we talking about?
8 MR IRVING: The report, I would have to have another look at
9the report to give your Lordship a number, but it was
10sufficiently important to have a 250-page report on it
11written by the American Government Military authorities.
12I adduce this purely as one way in which one cannot look
13at pure figures, because there are leaks, if I can put it
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me just make two points, if I may. One is you are
16presenting evidence of this report which I have not seen,
17I have not had the opportunity to see, so I do not know
18whether your account of what is in it is accurate or not
19and I really cannot comment on it. The second is that you
20do not cite it when you gave this particular speech. As
21far as the numbers, again you plucked, you have presented
22a number of what you describe as "Holocaust survivors" who
23have claims of one sort or another against banks and so on
24elsewhere, and I quote you have alleged that large numbers
25of so-called Holocaust survivors, as you have described,
26have made it up, put tattoos on their own arms and so on.
1 MR IRVING: I shall have to turn the tables on you and say
2that, if you are going to suggest that I said large
3numbers have done that, then I would ask you to provide
4any evidence for that assertion.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You said one lady and you said she was not
7 MR IRVING: I said she may have very well have a genuine tattoo
8on her name. I think those were the precise words I used
9about Mrs Altemann, that may very well be a genuine tattoo
10on your arm. If I can now pick up the other point
11that I did not provide a reference for this episode in my
12speech, one does not put footnotes in speeches.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, you but you say where you get the evidence from in a
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I now move on, in the spirit of his Lordship's desire
16for progress, paragraph 21, you say that my allegations of
17this nature derive ultimately from the Holocaust denier
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you any evidence at all that I have ever read the
21works of Paul Rassinier?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You did write an afterword to one of his books, which
23I find it difficult to believe you wrote without having
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Professor, believe. That is all I can say. That fact
26that I am invited to write an afterword on a particular
1topic for a book which I then deliver without reading the
2book should not surprise anyone?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It does not say very much for your responsibility as
4historian, Mr Irving.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] I have no responsibility at all whatsoever for the content
6of somebody's book if I am invited to write an historical
7afterword on it and, if you know the content of that
8afterword, you see that it no bore no resemblance or
9relationship to what was in the book at all. Do you agree
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You did have some very kind words to say about
12Mr Rassinier in your afterword. You have a rather obscure
13but very positive introductory paragraph talking about his
14work, and I find it quite extraordinary that you would
15write such a thing without actually having read it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you tell court what we know about Paul Rassinier?
17Was he a right-wing extremist?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is in my report. I have a few paragraphs about him a
19bit further on.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Was he a right-wing extremist?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He was one of the earliest and most important Holocaust
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Was he a right-wing extremist?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not sure about his politics.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Or was he in fact a communist, a left winger, who was
26incarcerated in Auschwitz because of his political views?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Initially, yes. I think that is why he went into
2Auschwitz. I do not think that is how he came out.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] He is a kind of eyewitness with first hand experience, is
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, he is a curious and interesting figure.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] A curious and interesting figure?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- who seems to have been, I am trying to find my
8references to it. It is on page 192 of my report.
9Rassinier was a Holocaust denier who published his book
10with Grabert Verlag, which is a well-known Holocaust
11denial publishing house in Germany.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Everybody in your vocabulary is a Holocaust denier,
13Holocaust denial, right-wing extremist?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I did not say right-wing extremist.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let the witness finish his answer.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] This what this trial in part is about.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it more significance that in fact he was a left winger
18who was incarcerated in Auschwitz because of his political
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It seems that he was beaten up by a communist fellow
21prisoner for having failed to pay his respects to the
22former German communist leader Thalmann, who was in the
23camp, and that this seems to have turned him against the
24communist party, and that he seems to have been well
25treated by the an SS guard. Certainly after the war he
26defended the SS and started to deny the existence of gas
1chambers, asserting that the Jews are mainly responsible
2for starting the second world war and so on.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Unlike yourself and myself, this was a man who had been in
4Auschwitz and so possibly his word deserves some kind of
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not sure he was in Auschwitz.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Buchenwald, was he not?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Buchenwald I think.
9 MR IRVING: I think he was also in Auschwitz at some stage.
10Anyway he was in the German concentration camp system and
11he wrote about it.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is why I consider it a curious case that he had the
13views that he had.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] And I therefore did the wrong thing by writing an
15afterword to his book?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I certainly think you did the wrong thing in writing an
17afterword to his book without actually having read the
18thing and making statements about the book in that
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Did I say in my afterword I have read this book and find
21it jolly good?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think one assumes it. You said things about Rassinier's
23views in your afterword which makes me assume that you are
24familiar with them.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] I am familiar with them to the extent that I have just
26described them to the court. He was a left winger who was
1sent to the concentration camp for his political views.
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] So you were familiar with his views then on the Holocaust.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] I have always known the fact that he has been a doubter
4and I see no reason at all why I should ----
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I find it difficult to know what we are disputing here in
7 Q. [Mr Irving] What we are disputing is on what basis you say that my
8views derived from Paul Rassinier?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I said ultimately. I am quite prepared to accept that
10there may have been intervening stages for his views. For
12 Q. [Mr Irving] If I have never read any of his books, how can my views as
13far as the death roll and anything else possibly have
14derived from Mr Rassinier? You now accept that this is
15just another of your wild and unsubstantiated assertions,
16is it not?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, because his views then became taken up into the
18general discourse of this particular -- I do not want to
19keep using the words "Holocaust denial" but I suppose it
20is unavoidable -- that they were represented by a number
21of other people.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] He just wanted to shoe horn his name in somehow, is that
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The idea is in his book and in his work it is put forward
25by you, the same view, and it seems therefore reasonable
26to conclude that somehow it has found its way from him to
1you, since it has no evidential basis.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] On page 120 now -- we will leave Mr Rassinier -- at
3paragraph 24, you say what Irving did concede in his 1992
4speech was that there were some authorised mass shootings
5on the Eastern Front.
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Unauthorized.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What page?
8 MR IRVING: Page 120, my Lord, of his report. You say that
9I conceded this in 1992. Had I ever denied that there had
10been shootings on the Eastern Front? Does not the word
11"concede" imply that I was now reversing a previously
12held stand or conviction?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I did not mean it to. I made it quite clear that you
14say this repeatedly, that there were unauthorized mass
15shootings of Jews behind the Eastern front.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words you have used the word "conceded" as just
17another loaded word you can use to help put some spice in
18the paragraph and flavour----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think it is that spicey, Mr Irving.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] It was not before, but you put in a word like "concede" or
21on the next page 121, first line, "Irving agreed once more
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] You have to put that in the context of what I say in the
24previous paragraph, which is where you go through the
25usual litany of stuff about casting doubt on the estimate
26of the numbers killed. You are trying to say that there
1was never any written order from Himmler stating that
2Hitler decided the Final Solution and so on and so forth.
3I am using the word "concede" here to balance out what
4I say in the previous paragraphs. What I am saying really
5is that your views conform to those of Holocaust deniers,
6but in this case you do say that there are some
7unauthorized mass shootings.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] The words Holocaust denier are becoming more and more
9meaningless as we progress. If you look at the first on
10page 121, "Irving agreed once more", conceding (this is
111995) there again these are loaded words, Irving agreed
12once conceding that "there is no doubt in my mind that on
13the Eastern Front large numbers of Jews were massacred by
14criminals with guns, SS men, Ukranians, Lithuanians,
15whatever, to get rid of them". That is a strange kind of
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] What I am saying here is that Holocaust deniers, including
18Monsieur Faurisson, whom I quote on the previous page as
19saying the same kind of thing, agreeing with you, have
20always admitted or said that there were unauthorized
21massacres of Jews behind the Eastern Front. Therefore,
22that is not evidence of, as it were, not being a Holocaust
23denier. That has always been a concession they have made
24to those who have argued that the Nazis killed large
25numbers of Jews. You yourself have now of course admitted
26in the course of this trial that there were up to a
1million Jews who were shot behind the Eastern Front as
2part of a systematic plan.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Why do you say admitted?
4 MR RAMPTON: Let him finish.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: May I make a suggestion and see whether you
6agree with it. Your thesis, whether it is right or wrong,
7is that Mr Irving denies to an extent the fact and the
8scale of the extermination and whether it was systematic.
9It seems to me that, if that is your thesis, when you get
10Mr Irving, he will not like the word, making admissions or
11concessions that particular events happened, you are going
12to describe it as an admission or a concession. Is that
13why you use the word?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, exactly.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] It is not really in any sense intended to be denigratory
16of you, I think?
17 MR IRVING: I disagree, my Lord. In the context of this report
18it is used as a loaded and as an emotive word.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not read it that way. I really do not.
20You can take it from me that I do not.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I certainly did not intend it that way. It is difficult to
22find another word in this context.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is true.
24 MR IRVING: Page 123, please, paragraph 27, "The standard works
25on the Holocaust", you write, "make it clear both that a
26substantial proportion of those killed were shot or
1starved to death or deliberately weakened and made
2susceptible to fatal diseases as a matter of policy, and
3that gassings took place at other centres besides
4Auschwitz, including notably Belzec, Sobibor and
5Treblinka". That is you writing that, is it not, Professor
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] From what part of that statement or cataclysm that you
9have written down there yourself do you believe I differ?
10Is there not one line of that statement with which
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, it looks at the previous part of that paragraph,
13where you say that, "The Holocaust with a capital 'H' is
14what's gone down in history in this one sentence form, so
15to speak: 'Adolf Hitler ordered the killing of six
16million Jews in Auschwitz'". What I go on to say is that
17nobody in fact has ever argued that six million Jews were
18killed by gassing at Auschwitz, or indeed six million Jews
19were killed in Auschwitz. That is not the common
20definition of "the Holocaust" and I am trying to say that
21your notion that that is what the Holocaust with a capital
22'H' is is a figment of your own imagination.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] You have now skirted around answering my direct question.
24The final sentence of that paragraph is your definition of
25the word "Holocaust" and there is not one line of that
26with which I disagree, is there?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, there is. Gassings took place at other centres
2besides Auschwitz, including notably Belzec, Sobibor and
3Treblinka. You denied altogether----
4 Q. [Mr Irving] This is a point that his Lordship is familiar with, I have
5conceded in all my books as well.
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I wrote this report before this trial, Mr Irving.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure about Belzec.
8 MR RAMPTON: No. The concession was recently made in the
9course of this trial.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And conceded Belzec too?
11 MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord, and also in the books as well.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I could not know, Mr Irving, what you were going to
13concede when I used the word in this trial.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] They are also in the books, are they not, the fact that
15these gassings took place, exterminations in Belzec,
16Sobibor and Treblinka? The only point I am holding out on
17is that crematorium No. 2, that particular building.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are now. Yes, I agree. I did not realize
19that you had been conceding this all along, and indeed
20I thought at the earlier stages of this trial you were not
21conceding it, but anyway.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] This is not the case, Mr Irving.
23 MR IRVING: It is an important point.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think it may be. Which books,
25Mr Irving, can I ask you that? Hitler's War? Do not
26answer if it is difficult off the top of your head.
1 MR IRVING: It would be time consuming to look it up but I will
2look up the references overnight, my Lord.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is fine.
4 MR IRVING: I have tripled lined that in the margin, that
5particular part of the report, as being a definition with
6which I wholeheartedly agree.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My view is that you did not agree with that definition
9when you said, "The Holocaust with a capital 'H' is what's
10gone down in history in this one sentence form, so to
11speak: 'Adolf Hitler ordered the killing of six million
12Jews in Auschwitz'".
13 MR IRVING: That is the popular view, is it not?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] The man on the Clapham omnibus view. If you say to him,
16"What is the Holocaust?", he will say, "Is that not that
17guy Hitler, did he not kill 6 million Jews in Auschwitz?"
18Is that not the common view of the Holocaust now?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] "The Holocaust with a capital 'H' is what's gone down in
20history in this one sentence form, so to speak: 'Adolf
21Hitler ordered the killing of six million Jews in
22Auschwitz'". I am not aware of anybody in print who has
23argued or suggested that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Even when I am quite specific about how huge the figures
25concerned are, I am looking now at the next paragraph, you
26dismiss that as being just one occasion when
1I accidentally or inadvertently conceded these huge
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, let me make a couple of point about that. That is
4the only occasion I could find.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I did not find any more. And, of course, when you say 4
7million, then you say that is of course due mainly to
8barbarity and typhus and epidemics, as you say, and you
9have many other statements which I cite in my report,
10where you say the Nazis killed in the order of thousands
11at a time, not millions, as you said in 1990.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we just ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I also make the point that of course that last statement,
14the statement before the last one, the last statement
15I quoted you as saying the Nazis killed of the order of
16thousands at a time, not millions, as in 1990, and your
17exceptional figure, the only instance I could find of 4
18million, where you mentioned barbarity and typhus and
19epidemics was in 1995. In other words, that is after
20Professor Lipstadt's book was published.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we just reel back slightly there? Looking at the last
22sentence in paragraph 29, the Nazis killed in the order of
23thousands at a time, not millions. I am not going to
24bother the court with looking up what the omission is
25because I will presume it is not important. But it is
26perfectly correct, is it not, that the Nazis killed them
1thousands at a time, did they not? They did not kill them
2millions at a time?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I guess it depends what you mean by "at a time".
4 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, there is one trench with thousands being
5lined up and shot into it on a particular morning. That
6statement is accurate, is that right?
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] In that sense, yes, of course.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] And July 27th 1995 is over a year before the writ was
9issued in this particular action?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I do quote this here, but I do point out that it is
11after Professor Lipstadt published her book.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you any evidence that I took cognisance of the
13content of Professor Lipstadt's book or indeed even of her
14opinions before the middle of 1996?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I am not suggesting anything. There is no suggestion
16in my report that you said that because Professor Lipstadt
17had published her book.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Is not the evidence in fact that some time in 1996
19I obtained a copy of the report of the book round about
20April when I was marketing the Goebbels biography, and
21that I immediately wrote a letter before action and took
22legal steps. So it was 1996 after I made this broadcast?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. I am not suggesting anything else. as I said,
24I repeat myself, I am not suggesting that you said this
25because of Professor Lipstadt's book.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] So this broadcast cannot have been self-serving in any
1particular way in connection with this action?
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not concerned with why you made this broadcast.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Would it be possible that I made those statements because
4I considered them to be true, in your view?
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Perfectly possible, yes. Let me quote the whole statement
6we are talking about. "I have to say, the figure I would
7have to give you is a minimum of one million, which is a
8monstrous crime, and a maximum of about 4 million,
9depending on what you mean by killed. If putting people
10into a concentration camp where they die of barbarity and
11typhus and epidemics is killing, then I would say the 4
12million figure, because undoubtedly huge numbers did die
13in the camps in the conditions that were very evident at
14the end of the war", and on other occasions, as I go on to
15say, you have argued that the deaths from disease in the
16camps were due in large measure to the allied bombing of
17the factories that made the medicines in Germany.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Professor Evans, have I put this July 1995 broadcast with
19those figures on my website for the world to see already
20for a couple of years now?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is here in my report, Mr Irving. I have not suppressed
23 Q. [Mr Irving] No, but is there any indication that it was a one off on
24my part and I blurted it out by mistake at four in the
25morning, this is after all Australia I am talking to?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] When did you put it on your website?
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, within the last year or two.
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is after the beginning of this action.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. In other words, there is no reason to suggest that
4this is a one off broadcast. You said that it is the one
5recorded episode. There may have been more episodes when
6I gave the same kind of figures.
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is the one recorded episode when I wrote this report
8which I finished last spring, spring last year.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] But in fact the figures I give there are probably pretty
10accurate, are they not? Killed by all means? Order of
11one to four million? Hilberg says 5.1 million, others say
126 million, does that make me a Holocaust denier because
13I come down to four?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think, in conjunction with the other things -- well, let
15me say two things. First of all, this is an isolated
16statement by the time I had written this report, and you
17had not made it before Professor Lipstadt wrote her book.
18You have many other statements where you give much lower
19figures, and indeed the interviewer Rawden Casey was
20extremely surprised that you should give this figure.
21Secondly, you suggested and you have to take this as a
22kind of package, that huge numbers died in the camps in
23the conditions that were very evident at the end of the
24war, and that epidemics ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving] We will come to that in a minute.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] -- and squalor and so on were an extremely important part
1of this. Therefore this is not part of a deliberate
2systematic extermination of the Jews by the Nazis. So you
3have to take that together with other things.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you saying that all ----
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Of course, four million is a figure that is well below the
6range of figures which responsible historians of the
7Holocaust consider, even leaving apart the question of the
8deliberate and systematic nature of the killing.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] If we look at the 6 million figure or the 5.1 million
10figure, are they all people who met a violent death?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I guess it depends what you mean by violence.
12I think the argument is that these are people who were
13killed as a result of a systematic mass murder by the
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Privations killed them as much as violence, right?
16Starvation, epidemic, brutality, exhaustion?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Which is exactly what I said in the radio interview,
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] As I said, you have to take that in conjunction with how
21and why you think that people died of typhus and epidemics
22in the camps.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Because I do not buy the whole 6 million, I am a Holocaust
24denier. I am suddenly not a responsible historian?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think you have to take this together with other aspects
26of what you have said and written about the Holocaust. As
1I say, we are focusing here on one statement you make
2where quite exceptionally you go up to 4 million, and in
3many other places you did use before that much lower
5 Q. [Mr Irving] You are aware that that radio broadcast was subsequently
6broadcast around the world by the newspapers; it was
7headlined in Australia and headlined in other countries
8around the world, and never once did I issue a dementi.
9I was quite happy to accept that I had stated those
10figures. Have you seen the press clippings?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have not, no, but I am happy to accept that though.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we now move on to the matter you wish to raise, which
13is the death by epidemics?
14 MR RAMPTON: Before we do that, can I draw your Lordship's
15attention to the stated position on the pleadings? I am
16sufficiently still enough of an anorak occasionally to
17refer to the pleadings. In relation to Belzec, Sobibor
18and Treblinka as at 18th March 1997 when the Reply was
19served, the allegation had been that Belzec, Sobibor and
20Treblinka were established as extermination camps as part
21of Aktion Reinhardt, Mr Irving said this:
22 "The Plaintiff was not aware of any authentic
23wartime archival evidence for the allegations raised in
24this paragraph. Aktion Reinhardt was named after Friz
25Reinhardt, the Civil Service, in the Reichs Finance
26Ministry in charge of exploiting the assets of deceased
1and murdered Jews and other concentration camp victims.
2It is denied that Aktion Reinhardt was itself an
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. My recollection is that in the initial
5stages Mr Irving was not accepting ----
6 MR RAMPTON: That is right.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- during his evidence that there was any
8gassing there, but when pressed he did. His position has
9evolved, in other words.
10 MR RAMPTON: The position has evolved to this, that he accepts
11there were Jews killed by gas at those camps. He is,
12I think to be fair, unsure of the scale.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, my recollection is he has actually had
14figures put to him which he has accepted.
15 MR RAMPTON: Then your Lordship's memory is better than mine.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think that that is historically
17right, for whatever it may be worth.
18 MR IRVING: Your Lordship will undoubtedly refer to the
19transcripts when the time comes, whatever I said in the
20transcripts. My recollection of the matter is that in
21order to speed the trial along we have stream lined a lot
22of the arguments and concentrated on certain institutions
23and centres, and left it like that.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
25 MR IRVING: It is not a formal concession. It is not a denial,
26but it helps to speed the process of the trial along. If
1I were to start digging my heels on all the other sites
2and locations and events and episodes then we would be
3here until Christmas.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not overestimate the importance of the
5speed of the trial. Obviously we have a duty not to waste
6time, but you cannot found your concessions on a wish to
7keep the trial moving along. They are either concessions,
8and I use that word I think correctly in this context, or
9they are not.
10 MR IRVING: My logic there is to say that if I am proved wrong
11on the main camp, on Auschwitz two, then what happened or
12did not happen in Sobibor, Treblinka and Belzec is neither
13here nor there. If, on the other hand, I am proved right
14on Auschwitz two, then equally what happened in Sobibor
15and Treblinka and Belzec is neither here nor there.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We may have to examine that further, but I am
17conscious you are trying to sustain a cross-examination
18and it is very difficult for you to have to argue.
19Mr Rampton was right, I think, to get up and say what he
20did. I certainly do not want to take you out of your
22 MR IRVING: He is certainly right to have pointed that out,
23although he very correctly read out exactly what the
24pleadings said, and the pleadings did not really justify
25the burden that he sought to place upon them.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know what you are getting at. Why
1do you not resume your cross-examination. If you are
2running out of steam ----
3 MR IRVING: I am not running out of steam. There is one other
4point I believe that the witness wishes to make which
5concerns the epidemics in Buchenwald at the end of the
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me go back and say that I quote you on page 106 in
8saying in 1998, you were asked: If Holocaust is
9representative of the allegation of the extermination of 6
10million Jews due to the Second World War as a direct
11result of official German policy of extermination, what
12would you say? You replied that: "I am not familiar with
13any documentary evidence of any such figure of 6 million.
14It must have been of the order of 100,000 or more".
15 MR IRVING: I would wish to see, to quote your words, I would
16wish definitely to see exactly what has been left out
17there, because that is such a remarkable statement in that
18form that I cannot accept that is a complete ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, you have had the opportunity to do so. You have had
20my report since July I think.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have probably got it. What page were you
22reading from, Professor Evans?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] 106.
24 MR IRVING: 106.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Right at the bottom.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have the testimony. Unfortunately we have
1not got a page reference. Yes, we have, page 12.
2 MR IRVING: By looking at the figures I think we are talking
3about how many are known to have died in Auschwitz.
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is not the question that you were asked. It is the
5extermination of 6 million Jews during the Second World
7 Q. [Mr Irving] That is why I want to see exactly what the testimony
8says. It would be clearly impossible for me to have said
9that the Holocaust was 100,000.
10 MR RAMPTON: No, it is not, Mr Irving is wrong. The question
11was: "And if the Holocaust is represented as the
12allegation of the extermination of 6 million Jews during
13the Second World War as a direct result of official German
14policy of extermination, what would you say to that
15thesis?" Then we get the answer.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where are you reading from?
17 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, I am reading from the transcript of
18Mr Irving's evidence.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have got that, but I have pages running
20into the hundreds.
21 MR RAMPTON: 204 in the bottom right-hand corner.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you want to see it, Mr Irving? You asked
23to see it and you are perfectly entitled to.
24 MR IRVING: I would wish to see the whole of it rather than
25just two or three lines that have been read out to me by
26Mr Rampton, to see what the context is.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is fair.
2 MR RAMPTON: Then there was a further question on 205, my
3Lord: "Do you have any opinion as a result of your
4research as to the number of Jews who died in
5concentration camps during the Second World War? I am not
6sure that an opinion wore here would be of use. I have
7opinions. I have opinions of the kind of statistical
8orders of magnitude where you can see there is a minimum
9number and a maximum number and I can only set these two
10limits and say that to my mind it must have been of the
11order of 100,000 or more".
12 MR IRVING: Yes, in other words 100,000 is the minimum ----
13 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
14 MR IRVING: --- of those died in concentration camps.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He does go on to say that certainly less than
16the figure which is quoted nowadays of 6 million.
17 MR RAMPTON: With the ellipse it is accurately set out in
18Professor Evans' report.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is true.
20 MR IRVING: Just once again those three lines quoted in the
21report do not really give the flavour of the deliberations
22that go on. If I am being asked as how many Jews died in
23the concentration camps during the war years, and I do
24what any scientist would which is give a lower limit and
25an upper limit which in this particular case are very wide
26indeed, not less than 100,000, not more than 6 million,
1that is all one can say on the basis of the certainties
2that we have.
3 Is there anything further you wish to say about
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you now wish to say something about the epidemics in
7Belsen and the responsibility of the Allies for them?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. I go on in my report to quote you, saying that it
9was the Allies: "We, the British and the Americans, were
10partially responsible, at least partially responsible, for
11their misfortune because we vowed deliberate bombing of
12the transportation networks, bombardation, deliberate ...
13bombarding the German communications ... pharmaceutical
14industry, medicine factories. We had deliberately created
15the conditions of chaos inside Germany. We had
16deliberately created the epidemics and the outbreaks of
17typhus and other diseases which led to those appalling
18scenes that were found at their most dramatic in the
19enclosed areas, the concentration camps, where, of course,
20epidemics can ravage and run wild". That is you in 1986.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] You dispute that, do you?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I do. The conditions of epidemics are created,
23essentially, by the Nazis who ran camps in such a way that
24they were extremely unhygienic.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] How can you combat epidemics if you do not have the
26pharmaceutical products to combat them?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, the point is that they -- first of all, the major
2epidemics were well before the end of the war. As you
3know, there is a major epidemic in Auschwitz in 1942 to 3,
4I think, and you are talking here as if this is only at
5the end of war.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you also familiar were the fact that epidemic is a
7by-product of bombardment of cities, that the water mains
8are destroyed, the rats feed on the cadavers?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, we are not talking about the bombardment of
10concentration camps. We are talking about conditions
11extremely unhygienic in which the particular disease
12concerned was typhus which is a disease of dirt and lack
13of hygiene, and there is plenty of evidence that these are
14the conditions in the camps which the Nazis deliberately
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What would you make of an historian who says,
17I suppose, the political party which had rounded up a
18particular race and put them into camps where typhus broke
19out and killed huge numbers of them, how do you feel about
20an historian who says that the person who deliberately
21created the epidemics was the person who bombed the
22pharmaceutical factories which might have been able to
23provide the distribution which might have limited the
24typhus epidemic, how would you regard?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I feel that that is a reversal of the truth. That is
26extremely perverse. Typhus is a disease which the Germans
1knew very well how to combat. They had had experience of
2it from the First World War. There had been a lot of
3medical intervention by the Germans since well before that
4combating diseases in Eastern Europe.
5 MR IRVING: How do you combat typhus?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Essentially, by cleanliness. It is by, for example,
7giving the inmates of a concentration camp fresh clothing
8and bedding at regular intervals which was not done at
10 Q. [Mr Irving] What is the carrier of typhus?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is the human body louse.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] And what is used for disposing of this typhus bearing
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, it is a question of prevention to start with, and
15that is the nub of the question. The concentration camp
16authorities did very little to prevent it because they did
17not provide conditions of cleanliness. It was exactly the
18same about the way in which they treated Russian prisoners
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you not familiar with the fact that in all the
21concentration camps of the Nazi system they had fumigation
22chambers for cleaning the clothing of the incoming
23prisoners? They had the clean side, the dirty side, the
24showers, the baths, the hair cuts, the whole of this
25system that went with this combatting of the typhus
26epidemic? Are you not familiar with that?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, it was an extremely ----
2 Q. [Mr Irving] In your statement the Nazis did nothing is, therefore,
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is extremely ineffective and I said did nothing to
5prevent it. I mean, it certainly did not. The evidence
7 Q. [Mr Irving] So the fumigation chambers, what they there for if it was
8not to prevent the typhus plague?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It was done in a rather inadequate way. Obviously, there
10was some incentive on the part of the SS to try to
11restrict the level and spread of epidemics, but the fact
12is that unhygienic conditions were part and parcel of the
13inhumanity of the concentration camps.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, we have to keep a slight grip on
15reality. It is your case that the typhus killed a very
16large proportion of the Jews who lost their lives.
17 MR IRVING: Yes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is difficult in the next breath to say how
19wonderful the system of fumigating clothes and the like
21 MR IRVING: My Lord, that is not the way I put it, but this
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it comes close to it.
24 MR IRVING: --- said the Nazis did nothing to prevent the
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you were putting to him that they had
1done a very great deal. Well, if they had ----
2 MR IRVING: I picked up the words that they had done nothing
3and, in fact, we have been sitting here for five weeks
4listening to nothing but the evidence that they had
5fumigation chambers for dealing with these epidemics.
6Particularly in Auschwitz, they went very, very far
7indeed. I do not have the photographs here any more, but
8there were the water purification plants they were
9installing. They went a very long way to try to combat
10this appalling problem which spread across Central Europe
11from 1942 onwards and, of course, as the war approached
12its end, this problem reached its zenith with the total
13collapse of hygiene, the total collapse of medical
14facilities, the collapse of transportation, the shifting
15of tens of hundreds of thousands of people in these
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, the measures which were undertaken, fumigation and
18so on, were mostly undertaken after epidemics had broken
19out to try to limit them, obviously, because the SS in the
20camps would then feel that they are endangered themselves,
21and other measures which they did undertake when epidemics
22broke out were killing the sick by injections or putting
23them into gas chambers. So they did undertake some
24measures. But I cannot say that they were in the -- that
25they did very much to prevent the epidemics.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Did the Germans not have an Institute of Racial Hygiene
1which did nothing other than combat epidemics? That is
2what it was created for?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not agree that the Institute of Racial Hygiene was
4about combating epidemics, no.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Professor Pfannenstiel, was he not a member of that
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The institute of Racial Hygiene was much more concerned
8with as it suggests, not hygiene in common sense ----
9 Q. [Mr Irving] But did they not have ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- but it is to do with race.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] --- a special body set up doing nothing else than
12investigating the spread of epidemics because of the
13damage it was causing to German war effort?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, what I said was that -- I am not quite sure what we
15are arguing about here, but what I said was that the
16conditions in the camps which favoured -- there were
17conditions in the camps which were deliberately created by
18the Nazis which were unhygienic, dirty, degrading and
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you explain the word "deliberately"? Are you
21implying that these epidemic bearing lice in some way
22distinguished between the prisoner, on the one hand, and
23the SS guard, on the other? They knew which uniform to go
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Why would anybody create an epidemic deliberately in a
2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I did not say they created the epidemic. I said that they
3created the conditions. I mean, they knew full well what
5 Q. [Mr Irving] They deliberately created epidemic conditions?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They full knew what would happen in those filthy
7conditions which they ----
8 Q. [Mr Irving] They negligently created epidemic conditions?
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think it was a matter of oversight on their part,
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you read Professor van Pelt's book on Auschwitz in
12which he describes in great detail the negligence of the
13designers in this respect?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to admit I have not, no.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In what respect in the design of?
16 MR IRVING: The layout of the camp. They said it was inviting
17epidemics, the way it was designed. The prisoners had to
18march long distances in order to get to hygiene
19facilities, and so on.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That would seem to confirm my point of view.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is rather what I thought, yes. I mean,
22does that not rather suggest that they were not too
23concerned about epidemics breaking out?
24 MR IRVING: Through negligence they have the camp badly
25designed is very different from saying that they
26deliberately created epidemic conditions?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But you just maintained, Mr Irving, that they knew all
2about epidemics and they had institutes devoted to them
3and so on. It is rather puzzling that in that case it
4should be a mere oversight when they are building these
6 Q. [Mr Irving] So you agree that there were major epidemics in
7Bergen-Belsen and Buchenwald at the end of the war?
8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Were these deliberately created, is that your contention?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The conditions there were deliberately created by the
11Nazis, of course. In other words, had they wanted to
12prevent them, they could have done so.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] But they just let the epidemics run, did they?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. As I have said, they then made attempts (which I have
15just described) to try to limit the epidemics. You can
16compare this, if you like, with prisoners of war camps for
17British airmen and troops in which hygienic conditions
18were a good deal better.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you know how many people died in Dachau concentration
20camp in the first two months after World War II from
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] A substantial number.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Was it of the order of 20,000 prisoners?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I will take your word for it.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Under American control, with the Americans deliberately
26spreading epidemics too?
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, Mr Irving. They were dealing with the consequences.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, this is all getting a little
3absurd. This all started out because you wrote or said
4that, "We", that is to say the Allies, "have deliberately
5created the epidemics" and maybe I have rather contributed
6to this by asking Professor Evans whether he thought that
7was a sensible view for an historian to take. We now seem
8to have gone the full circle, as it were. Anyway, I think
9we have probably exhausted the topic.
10 MR IRVING: I do not think I put it exactly they way your
11Lordship says. I say we deliberately created the
12conditions of chaos through our bombing campaign,
13Operation Point Blank and Eclipse and so on.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, may I quote to you, Mr Irving: "We had deliberately
15quote created the epidemics and the outbreaks of typhus
16and other diseases which led to those appalling scenes
17that were found at their most dramatic in the enclosed
18areas, the concentration camps" -- a lecture you gave in
20 MR IRVING: Oh, a speech?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] A lecture? I thought it was from a book.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I presume you accept responsibility for saying that,
24Mr Irving ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, that is ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- whether you said it or wrote it.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] --- from a transcript of a speech made by somebody, is
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is a video -- an audio cassette of a speech.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you not just read out a speech two or three minutes
5ago which was quite clearly vulgarized, the text?
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can, if necessary, look at that speech if
7you think that the context makes any difference, but
8I think probably, Mr Irving, we can break off your
10 MR IRVING: That would be a useful point to break off at this
11point, my Lord.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I make an enquiry of you which is really
13to ask, and I expect Professor Evans would like to know
14the answer, what your estimate is as to the future of your
16 MR IRVING: Two and a half more days.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How many?
18 MR IRVING: Two and a half more days.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Are you going to follow the ----
20 MR IRVING: I am going to follow the ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- structure of his report?
22 MR IRVING: I think it is the only way to do it, my Lord.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think I agree with that. I think you
24are right. To the extent that there are matters raised in
25Professor Evans' report that are not any longer, I think,
26relied on as part of the Defendants' case, then you can
1probably not trouble with them or, at any rate, take them
2very shortly if you want to.
3 MR IRVING: Yes. Has your Lordship in your Lordship's memory
4which particular matters those are that are no longer
5relied on? Sikorsky is one, I believe?
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sikorsky is certainly one. Hitler's
7adjutants, I think, has rather come back in again.
8I mean, I think it is probably not sensible for me to try
9to identify them now because I do not really have them in
10mind, but if the Defendants let you know whether there are
11parts in your report that are no longer relied on, that
12might simplify things all round.
13 MR IRVING: What about Moscow? Is there anything about Moscow
14in this report?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think there is.
16 MR RAMPTON: Not about Moscow. I have done that anyway.
17Moscow is certainly a live issue. There is nothing about
18Moscow in this report, as far as I know.
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, are you going to permit a further
20cross-examination of me?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have always contemplated there
22would be a further cross-examination, but it is not
23open-ended. It is dealing with left over topics.
24 MR RAMPTON: Can I tell your Lordship what I have left? I have
25got the Fleming book which has a reference to the Muller
26message to the Einsatzgruppen on 1st August 1941. I have
1got Kinner Zamos report of 16th December 1942. I have got
2Anne Frank. I have got the criminal statistics which is
3dealt with towards the end of Professor Evans' report,
4pages 692 to 8, and I have got a couple of other things
5which I am just having checked at the moment. If
6necessary, I will give notice and, of course, I have the
7political associations as well.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That is very helpful, but if you are
9able to tell, or Miss Rogers or somebody is able to tell,
10Mr Irving that there are parts of Professor Evans' report
11which are no longer really relied on and, therefore, he
12need not trouble with them?
13 MR RAMPTON: I think it means we can regard the Adjutants and
14the Roman Jews as out of the ring.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There may be other bits?
16 MR RAMPTON: Little bits, but those are the two main subjects,
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does that help, Mr Irving, a bit?
19 MR RAMPTON: Though I cannot guarantee it will not ----
20 MR IRVING: If I had known we could have torn up the first 120
21pages of his report, it would have saved a lot of time.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that I would put it quite like
24 (The court adjourned until the following day)