Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 217

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Even so, can you answer?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We read the material in order to, well, I am trying to
 3explain that my expertise may be not very good at that
 4particular level, there were other expert witnesses who
 5were asked to do that. I did collect information which is
 6on page 174 and afterwards of my report, which is about
 7your connections with Holocaust deniers, and I did find --
 8I am trying to find it in my report -- connections with
 9Ahmed Rami, page 198.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you tell the court what these alleged connections
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. You appeared on the same platform as him in the
13so-called Leuchter Congress, 23rd March 1991.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any reason why I should have recognized Mr Rami,
15in your opinion?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think if one appears on a platform with other speakers,
17one knows who they are.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any connection at all between this Mr Rami and
19the gentleman, Mr Farakan that I mentioned, or the
20Hisbollah and the Hamas?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have to claim that I do not have any direct expertise on
22that. I cannot say.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you found any kind of correspondence between myself
24and Mr Rami? Has any been shown to you?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not to my recollection.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     So apart from this ----

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But, as I say, that is not what I was really looking for.
 2I am really concerned with looking at connections between
 3you and people whose main business is Holocaust deniers.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So the answer to the original question,
 5whether you have discovered any links, as it were, is no?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Is no, that is right. That is not to say that there is
 7not any but...
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, but you have not come across it?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not come across it, no. I mean, he, Rami, occupies
10about four lines of my report.
11 MR IRVING:     Yes. Is there any particular reason why you
12mentioned Rami in this connection? Is he a terrorist or
13an extremist? I mean, to me, he unknown. I know nothing
14at all about him.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I find that difficult to believe since you appeared
16on the same platform as him in a meeting, a public
17meeting. He is an extremist who runs an extreme
18anti-semitic website which I have looked at.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     When you say that he appeared on the same platform, do you
20have photographs of him standing shoulder to shoulder with
21me or are you just saying that he was there one day and I
22was there the next day?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you challenge having been on the same
24platform as him?
25 MR IRVING:     I want to know what he means by this, my Lord.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I am asking am asking you because you

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 1have to put your case, Mr Irving. I mentioned that on
 2Thursday. Is it your case that you have never appeared on
 3a platform with Mr Rami?
 4 MR IRVING:     Never knowingly appeared.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Never?
 6 MR IRVING:     If I can put it like that, my Lord.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I footnote video tape 201.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Never knowingly appeared? I see.
 9 MR IRVING:     Well, quite simply, because when is this video
10taped alleged to have been?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     23rd March 1991.
12 MR IRVING:     1991. So it is nine years ago and this is somebody
13who has, apparently, stood near me on a platform and this
14is good as the connection gets?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you were both speakers. As I say, this is not a
16very important part of my report; it only occupies a few
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you turn to page 37 of your report, please? We are
19now moving on, my Lord. Paragraph 244. You talk about
20the unreliability of Hitler's former aids as a source?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     And, effectively, my gullibility in falling for everything
23they said?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I would not accuse you of being gullible, Mr Irving.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     My lack of critical nous, shall we say, in accepting what
26Hitler's Adjutants and secretaries and people have told me

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 1-- is that the burden of that paragraph 244?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Critical intention, I think.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you accept, however, that on numerous occasions I have
 4persuaded Hitler's private staff and the Adjutants and
 5their juniors to reveal to me matters which were against
 6their interest, or against the interest of Adolf Hitler
 7which is probably more significant? Do you accept this is
 8true? Do you remember from The War Path where Hitler's
 9private secretary, Krista Schroeder, describes to me on
10the night of the long knives, June 30th 1934, when they
11returned to the Chancellery afterwards Hitler vanished and
12had a shower?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I remember that.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you remember what Hitler said to her when he
15reappeared, roughly?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Very vaguely. You would have to remind me of the exact
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     "So Fraulein Schroeder, now I have had a shower and I feel
19as clean as a new born babe"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you feel that speaks highly for Adolf Hitler, that he
22murders his closest compatriots and has a shower and
23washes himself clean?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not. But you do say in a document which I quote
25on page 604 that, once the former members of Hitler's
26staff, once you had won their confidence I think you mean,

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 1they thought well now at last they were doing their chief
 2a service. So it seem to be your view that you persuade
 3them that they were doing Hitler a service by talking to
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think the sense is that they were doing history a
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not what you said.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     They were telling the story -- what are the exact words
 9that I used?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The exact words were, and I think you have reversed the
11sense here a bit, once they had won your confidence --
12I think you mean once you had won their confidence -- and
13they knew you were not going to go and report them to the
14State Prosecutor, they trusted you and they thought well,
15now at last they were doing their chief a service.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. How would they be doing their chief a service if
17they told me details of how Hitler had ordered the
18liquidation of the inmates of a concentration camp?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not what Krista Schroeder said, was it, to you?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am giving specific examples now. You said that
21I persuaded these people to talk, but that I then fell for
22them, so to speak, and that I did not manage to use my
23methods, my oily greasy methods, shall I put it like, in
24fact to get from them information against their self-
25interest which is what I contend I did.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Oily and greasy are not my words.

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