Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 201 - 205 of 217

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    "The Plaintiff was not aware of any authentic
 1and murdered Jews and other concentration camp victims.
 2It is denied that Aktion Reinhardt was itself an
 3extermination operation."
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. My recollection is that in the initial
 5stages Mr Irving was not accepting ----
 6 MR RAMPTON:     That is right.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- during his evidence that there was any
 8gassing there, but when pressed he did. His position has
 9evolved, in other words.
10 MR RAMPTON:     The position has evolved to this, that he accepts
11there were Jews killed by gas at those camps. He is,
12I think to be fair, unsure of the scale.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, my recollection is he has actually had
14figures put to him which he has accepted.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Then your Lordship's memory is better than mine.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I think that that is historically
17right, for whatever it may be worth.
18 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will undoubtedly refer to the
19transcripts when the time comes, whatever I said in the
20transcripts. My recollection of the matter is that in
21order to speed the trial along we have stream lined a lot
22of the arguments and concentrated on certain institutions
23and centres, and left it like that.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
25 MR IRVING:     It is not a formal concession. It is not a denial,
26but it helps to speed the process of the trial along. If

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 1I were to start digging my heels on all the other sites
 2and locations and events and episodes then we would be
 3here until Christmas.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not overestimate the importance of the
 5speed of the trial. Obviously we have a duty not to waste
 6time, but you cannot found your concessions on a wish to
 7keep the trial moving along. They are either concessions,
 8and I use that word I think correctly in this context, or
 9they are not.
10 MR IRVING:     My logic there is to say that if I am proved wrong
11on the main camp, on Auschwitz two, then what happened or
12did not happen in Sobibor, Treblinka and Belzec is neither
13here nor there. If, on the other hand, I am proved right
14on Auschwitz two, then equally what happened in Sobibor
15and Treblinka and Belzec is neither here nor there.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We may have to examine that further, but I am
17conscious you are trying to sustain a cross-examination
18and it is very difficult for you to have to argue.
19Mr Rampton was right, I think, to get up and say what he
20did. I certainly do not want to take you out of your
22 MR IRVING:     He is certainly right to have pointed that out,
23although he very correctly read out exactly what the
24pleadings said, and the pleadings did not really justify
25the burden that he sought to place upon them.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I know what you are getting at. Why

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 1do you not resume your cross-examination. If you are
 2running out of steam ----
 3 MR IRVING:     I am not running out of steam. There is one other
 4point I believe that the witness wishes to make which
 5concerns the epidemics in Buchenwald at the end of the
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me go back and say that I quote you on page 106 in
 8saying in 1998, you were asked: If Holocaust is
 9representative of the allegation of the extermination of 6
10million Jews due to the Second World War as a direct
11result of official German policy of extermination, what
12would you say? You replied that: "I am not familiar with
13any documentary evidence of any such figure of 6 million.
14It must have been of the order of 100,000 or more".
15 MR IRVING:     I would wish to see, to quote your words, I would
16wish definitely to see exactly what has been left out
17there, because that is such a remarkable statement in that
18form that I cannot accept that is a complete ----
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you have had the opportunity to do so. You have had
20my report since July I think.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have probably got it. What page were you
22reading from, Professor Evans?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     106.
24 MR IRVING:     106.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Right at the bottom.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have the testimony. Unfortunately we have

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 1not got a page reference. Yes, we have, page 12.
 2 MR IRVING:     By looking at the figures I think we are talking
 3about how many are known to have died in Auschwitz.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not the question that you were asked. It is the
 5extermination of 6 million Jews during the Second World
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is why I want to see exactly what the testimony
 8says. It would be clearly impossible for me to have said
 9that the Holocaust was 100,000.
10 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not, Mr Irving is wrong. The question
11was: "And if the Holocaust is represented as the
12allegation of the extermination of 6 million Jews during
13the Second World War as a direct result of official German
14policy of extermination, what would you say to that
15thesis?" Then we get the answer.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where are you reading from?
17 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, I am reading from the transcript of
18Mr Irving's evidence.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have got that, but I have pages running
20into the hundreds.
21 MR RAMPTON:     204 in the bottom right-hand corner.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you want to see it, Mr Irving? You asked
23to see it and you are perfectly entitled to.
24 MR IRVING:     I would wish to see the whole of it rather than
25just two or three lines that have been read out to me by
26Mr Rampton, to see what the context is.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is fair.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Then there was a further question on 205, my
 3Lord: "Do you have any opinion as a result of your
 4research as to the number of Jews who died in
 5concentration camps during the Second World War? I am not
 6sure that an opinion wore here would be of use. I have
 7opinions. I have opinions of the kind of statistical
 8orders of magnitude where you can see there is a minimum
 9number and a maximum number and I can only set these two
10limits and say that to my mind it must have been of the
11order of 100,000 or more".
12 MR IRVING:     Yes, in other words 100,000 is the minimum ----
13 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
14 MR IRVING:     --- of those died in concentration camps.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He does go on to say that certainly less than
16the figure which is quoted nowadays of 6 million.
17 MR RAMPTON:     With the ellipse it is accurately set out in
18Professor Evans' report.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is true.
20 MR IRVING:     Just once again those three lines quoted in the
21report do not really give the flavour of the deliberations
22that go on. If I am being asked as how many Jews died in
23the concentration camps during the war years, and I do
24what any scientist would which is give a lower limit and
25an upper limit which in this particular case are very wide
26indeed, not less than 100,000, not more than 6 million,

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