Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 196 - 200 of 217

<< 1-5216-217 >>
    Can we just reel back slightly there? Looking at the last
 1thousands at a time, did they not? They did not kill them
 2millions at a time?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I guess it depends what you mean by "at a time".
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, there is one trench with thousands being
 5lined up and shot into it on a particular morning. That
 6statement is accurate, is that right?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In that sense, yes, of course.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     And July 27th 1995 is over a year before the writ was
 9issued in this particular action?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I do quote this here, but I do point out that it is
11after Professor Lipstadt published her book.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you any evidence that I took cognisance of the
13content of Professor Lipstadt's book or indeed even of her
14opinions before the middle of 1996?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I am not suggesting anything. There is no suggestion
16in my report that you said that because Professor Lipstadt
17had published her book.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is not the evidence in fact that some time in 1996
19I obtained a copy of the report of the book round about
20April when I was marketing the Goebbels biography, and
21that I immediately wrote a letter before action and took
22legal steps. So it was 1996 after I made this broadcast?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I am not suggesting anything else. as I said,
24I repeat myself, I am not suggesting that you said this
25because of Professor Lipstadt's book.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this broadcast cannot have been self-serving in any

.   P-196

 1particular way in connection with this action?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not concerned with why you made this broadcast.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it be possible that I made those statements because
 4I considered them to be true, in your view?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Perfectly possible, yes. Let me quote the whole statement
 6we are talking about. "I have to say, the figure I would
 7have to give you is a minimum of one million, which is a
 8monstrous crime, and a maximum of about 4 million,
 9depending on what you mean by killed. If putting people
10into a concentration camp where they die of barbarity and
11typhus and epidemics is killing, then I would say the 4
12million figure, because undoubtedly huge numbers did die
13in the camps in the conditions that were very evident at
14the end of the war", and on other occasions, as I go on to
15say, you have argued that the deaths from disease in the
16camps were due in large measure to the allied bombing of
17the factories that made the medicines in Germany.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans, have I put this July 1995 broadcast with
19those figures on my website for the world to see already
20for a couple of years now?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is here in my report, Mr Irving. I have not suppressed
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, but is there any indication that it was a one off on
24my part and I blurted it out by mistake at four in the
25morning, this is after all Australia I am talking to?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     When did you put it on your website?

.   P-197

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, within the last year or two.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is after the beginning of this action.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. In other words, there is no reason to suggest that
 4this is a one off broadcast. You said that it is the one
 5recorded episode. There may have been more episodes when
 6I gave the same kind of figures.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is the one recorded episode when I wrote this report
 8which I finished last spring, spring last year.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     But in fact the figures I give there are probably pretty
10accurate, are they not? Killed by all means? Order of
11one to four million? Hilberg says 5.1 million, others say
126 million, does that make me a Holocaust denier because
13I come down to four?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think, in conjunction with the other things -- well, let
15me say two things. First of all, this is an isolated
16statement by the time I had written this report, and you
17had not made it before Professor Lipstadt wrote her book.
18You have many other statements where you give much lower
19figures, and indeed the interviewer Rawden Casey was
20extremely surprised that you should give this figure.
21Secondly, you suggested and you have to take this as a
22kind of package, that huge numbers died in the camps in
23the conditions that were very evident at the end of the
24war, and that epidemics ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will come to that in a minute.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     -- and squalor and so on were an extremely important part

.   P-198

 1of this. Therefore this is not part of a deliberate
 2systematic extermination of the Jews by the Nazis. So you
 3have to take that together with other things.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you saying that all ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Of course, four million is a figure that is well below the
 6range of figures which responsible historians of the
 7Holocaust consider, even leaving apart the question of the
 8deliberate and systematic nature of the killing.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     If we look at the 6 million figure or the 5.1 million
10figure, are they all people who met a violent death?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I guess it depends what you mean by violence.
12I think the argument is that these are people who were
13killed as a result of a systematic mass murder by the
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Privations killed them as much as violence, right?
16Starvation, epidemic, brutality, exhaustion?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is exactly what I said in the radio interview,
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     As I said, you have to take that in conjunction with how
21and why you think that people died of typhus and epidemics
22in the camps.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because I do not buy the whole 6 million, I am a Holocaust
24denier. I am suddenly not a responsible historian?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think you have to take this together with other aspects
26of what you have said and written about the Holocaust. As

.   P-199

 1I say, we are focusing here on one statement you make
 2where quite exceptionally you go up to 4 million, and in
 3many other places you did use before that much lower
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are aware that that radio broadcast was subsequently
 6broadcast around the world by the newspapers; it was
 7headlined in Australia and headlined in other countries
 8around the world, and never once did I issue a dementi.
 9I was quite happy to accept that I had stated those
10figures. Have you seen the press clippings?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not, no, but I am happy to accept that though.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we now move on to the matter you wish to raise, which
13is the death by epidemics?
14 MR RAMPTON:     Before we do that, can I draw your Lordship's
15attention to the stated position on the pleadings? I am
16sufficiently still enough of an anorak occasionally to
17refer to the pleadings. In relation to Belzec, Sobibor
18and Treblinka as at 18th March 1997 when the Reply was
19served, the allegation had been that Belzec, Sobibor and
20Treblinka were established as extermination camps as part
21of Aktion Reinhardt, Mr Irving said this:
22     "The Plaintiff was not aware of any authentic
23wartime archival evidence for the allegations raised in
24this paragraph. Aktion Reinhardt was named after Friz
25Reinhardt, the Civil Service, in the Reichs Finance
26Ministry in charge of exploiting the assets of deceased

.   P-200

<< 1-5216-217 >>