Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 191 - 195 of 217

<< 1-5216-217 >>
    What I am saying here is that Holocaust deniers, including
 1million Jews who were shot behind the Eastern Front as
 2part of a systematic plan.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why do you say admitted?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Let him finish.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     May I make a suggestion and see whether you
 6agree with it. Your thesis, whether it is right or wrong,
 7is that Mr Irving denies to an extent the fact and the
 8scale of the extermination and whether it was systematic.
 9It seems to me that, if that is your thesis, when you get
10Mr Irving, he will not like the word, making admissions or
11concessions that particular events happened, you are going
12to describe it as an admission or a concession. Is that
13why you use the word?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, exactly.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It is not really in any sense intended to be denigratory
16of you, I think?
17 MR IRVING:     I disagree, my Lord. In the context of this report
18it is used as a loaded and as an emotive word.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not read it that way. I really do not.
20You can take it from me that I do not.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I certainly did not intend it that way. It is difficult to
22find another word in this context.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is true.
24 MR IRVING:     Page 123, please, paragraph 27, "The standard works
25on the Holocaust", you write, "make it clear both that a
26substantial proportion of those killed were shot or

.   P-191

 1starved to death or deliberately weakened and made
 2susceptible to fatal diseases as a matter of policy, and
 3that gassings took place at other centres besides
 4Auschwitz, including notably Belzec, Sobibor and
 5Treblinka". That is you writing that, is it not, Professor
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     From what part of that statement or cataclysm that you
 9have written down there yourself do you believe I differ?
10Is there not one line of that statement with which
11I agree?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it looks at the previous part of that paragraph,
13where you say that, "The Holocaust with a capital 'H' is
14what's gone down in history in this one sentence form, so
15to speak: 'Adolf Hitler ordered the killing of six
16million Jews in Auschwitz'". What I go on to say is that
17nobody in fact has ever argued that six million Jews were
18killed by gassing at Auschwitz, or indeed six million Jews
19were killed in Auschwitz. That is not the common
20definition of "the Holocaust" and I am trying to say that
21your notion that that is what the Holocaust with a capital
22'H' is is a figment of your own imagination.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have now skirted around answering my direct question.
24The final sentence of that paragraph is your definition of
25the word "Holocaust" and there is not one line of that
26with which I disagree, is there?

.   P-192

 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, there is. Gassings took place at other centres
 2besides Auschwitz, including notably Belzec, Sobibor and
 3Treblinka. You denied altogether----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is a point that his Lordship is familiar with, I have
 5conceded in all my books as well.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I wrote this report before this trial, Mr Irving.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure about Belzec.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     No. The concession was recently made in the
 9course of this trial.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And conceded Belzec too?
11 MR IRVING:     Yes, my Lord, and also in the books as well.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I could not know, Mr Irving, what you were going to
13concede when I used the word in this trial.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     They are also in the books, are they not, the fact that
15these gassings took place, exterminations in Belzec,
16Sobibor and Treblinka? The only point I am holding out on
17is that crematorium No. 2, that particular building.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are now. Yes, I agree. I did not realize
19that you had been conceding this all along, and indeed
20I thought at the earlier stages of this trial you were not
21conceding it, but anyway.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is not the case, Mr Irving.
23 MR IRVING:     It is an important point.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think it may be. Which books,
25Mr Irving, can I ask you that? Hitler's War? Do not
26answer if it is difficult off the top of your head.

.   P-193

 1 MR IRVING:     It would be time consuming to look it up but I will
 2look up the references overnight, my Lord.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is fine.
 4 MR IRVING:     I have tripled lined that in the margin, that
 5particular part of the report, as being a definition with
 6which I wholeheartedly agree.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     My view is that you did not agree with that definition
 9when you said, "The Holocaust with a capital 'H' is what's
10gone down in history in this one sentence form, so to
11speak: 'Adolf Hitler ordered the killing of six million
12Jews in Auschwitz'".
13 MR IRVING:     That is the popular view, is it not?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     The man on the Clapham omnibus view. If you say to him,
16"What is the Holocaust?", he will say, "Is that not that
17guy Hitler, did he not kill 6 million Jews in Auschwitz?"
18Is that not the common view of the Holocaust now?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "The Holocaust with a capital 'H' is what's gone down in
20history in this one sentence form, so to speak: 'Adolf
21Hitler ordered the killing of six million Jews in
22Auschwitz'". I am not aware of anybody in print who has
23argued or suggested that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Even when I am quite specific about how huge the figures
25concerned are, I am looking now at the next paragraph, you
26dismiss that as being just one occasion when

.   P-194

 1I accidentally or inadvertently conceded these huge
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, let me make a couple of point about that. That is
 4the only occasion I could find.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I did not find any more. And, of course, when you say 4
 7million, then you say that is of course due mainly to
 8barbarity and typhus and epidemics, as you say, and you
 9have many other statements which I cite in my report,
10where you say the Nazis killed in the order of thousands
11at a time, not millions, as you said in 1990.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we just ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I also make the point that of course that last statement,
14the statement before the last one, the last statement
15I quoted you as saying the Nazis killed of the order of
16thousands at a time, not millions, as in 1990, and your
17exceptional figure, the only instance I could find of 4
18million, where you mentioned barbarity and typhus and
19epidemics was in 1995. In other words, that is after
20Professor Lipstadt's book was published.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we just reel back slightly there? Looking at the last
22sentence in paragraph 29, the Nazis killed in the order of
23thousands at a time, not millions. I am not going to
24bother the court with looking up what the omission is
25because I will presume it is not important. But it is
26perfectly correct, is it not, that the Nazis killed them

.   P-195

<< 1-5216-217 >>