Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 217

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    I do not know where you get that figure
 1because they were in Auschwitz, in some other camp, or
 2perhaps in no camp at all, they were dispossessed by the
 4 MR IRVING:     If they are Jewish Holocaust survivors, my Lord,
 5and there is that number of them extant at the end of the
 620th century, then you can do actuCourier calculations
 7backwards to work out roughly how many would have
 8survived, given certain obvious adjustments you have to
 9make for age and so on, that the older ones would have
10stayed behind, the younger ones would have emigrated, and
11you can come up with ball park figures. But the Professor
12has not done this kind of calculations, so there is no
13point asking him.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But your suggestion, therefore, is that these
15are 450,000 true Holocaust survivors in the sense that
16they come from one death camp or another?
17 MR IRVING:     They were Jews who were subject to the Holocaust as
18I defined it, which is one more reason why my definition
19is the right one, that they were Jews who were subjected
20to the Nazi atrocities during the period of the Third
21Reich of whatever kind.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, I simply do not understand this. If
23this is about claims against Swiss Banks who are holding
24or have held property taken from victims of the Holocaust,
25we might be talking about the great grandchildren of
26people who survived who had a claim on the property.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what was going through my mind.
 2 MR IRVING:     And also the slave labourers, the great
 3grandchildren of the slave labourers cannot claim
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us go back to where we started. You were
 6suggesting that the bulk, or a very large proportion, of
 7the people in Auschwitz disappeared because they went
 8secretly to Israel and I think Professor Evans ----
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have not said either the bulk or a very
10large portion. I just said part. This is what I was
11trying to nail the witness down on when he says, "Irving
12claimed that the Jews who disappeared did not die", what
13he meant by the Jews. Obviously it does not mean all of
14them. He is meaning part of them.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Leave aside the exact number. He is saying
16that he does not accept that there was any evidence for
17that statement, and I have not got clear when you first
18saw this report you have talked about by the Haganah.
19When did you first see that?
20 MR IRVING:     Seven or eight years ago my Lord.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was that the source for your claim?
22 MR IRVING:     Yes, very definitely.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And that says? What is its conclusion in
24terms of numbers?
25 MR IRVING:     The American Military Forces described how the
26Haganah, operating in conjunction with the United Nations

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 1Rescue and Relief Agency, visited all the displaced
 2persons camps, very well organized, with walkie-talkie
 3radios and trucks picking up all the Jewish victims from
 4those camps, loading them on board, and then they vanished
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     My question was really about numbers. How
 7many are we talking about?
 8 MR IRVING:     The report, I would have to have another look at
 9the report to give your Lordship a number, but it was
10sufficiently important to have a 250-page report on it
11written by the American Government Military authorities.
12I adduce this purely as one way in which one cannot look
13at pure figures, because there are leaks, if I can put it
14like that.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me just make two points, if I may. One is you are
16presenting evidence of this report which I have not seen,
17I have not had the opportunity to see, so I do not know
18whether your account of what is in it is accurate or not
19and I really cannot comment on it. The second is that you
20do not cite it when you gave this particular speech. As
21far as the numbers, again you plucked, you have presented
22a number of what you describe as "Holocaust survivors" who
23have claims of one sort or another against banks and so on
24elsewhere, and I quote you have alleged that large numbers
25of so-called Holocaust survivors, as you have described,
26have made it up, put tattoos on their own arms and so on.

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 1 MR IRVING:     I shall have to turn the tables on you and say
 2that, if you are going to suggest that I said large
 3numbers have done that, then I would ask you to provide
 4any evidence for that assertion.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You said one lady and you said she was not
 7 MR IRVING:     I said she may have very well have a genuine tattoo
 8on her name. I think those were the precise words I used
 9about Mrs Altemann, that may very well be a genuine tattoo
10on your arm. If I can now pick up the other point
11that I did not provide a reference for this episode in my
12speech, one does not put footnotes in speeches.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, you but you say where you get the evidence from in a
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I now move on, in the spirit of his Lordship's desire
16for progress, paragraph 21, you say that my allegations of
17this nature derive ultimately from the Holocaust denier
18Paul Rassinier.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you any evidence at all that I have ever read the
21works of Paul Rassinier?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You did write an afterword to one of his books, which
23I find it difficult to believe you wrote without having
24read it.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor, believe. That is all I can say. That fact
26that I am invited to write an afterword on a particular

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 1topic for a book which I then deliver without reading the
 2book should not surprise anyone?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does not say very much for your responsibility as
 4historian, Mr Irving.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have no responsibility at all whatsoever for the content
 6of somebody's book if I am invited to write an historical
 7afterword on it and, if you know the content of that
 8afterword, you see that it no bore no resemblance or
 9relationship to what was in the book at all. Do you agree
10with that?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You did have some very kind words to say about
12Mr Rassinier in your afterword. You have a rather obscure
13but very positive introductory paragraph talking about his
14work, and I find it quite extraordinary that you would
15write such a thing without actually having read it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you tell court what we know about Paul Rassinier?
17Was he a right-wing extremist?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is in my report. I have a few paragraphs about him a
19bit further on.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he a right-wing extremist?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was one of the earliest and most important Holocaust
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he a right-wing extremist?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not sure about his politics.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or was he in fact a communist, a left winger, who was
26incarcerated in Auschwitz because of his political views?

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