Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 176 - 180 of 217

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    My Lord, that was a horrendous interruption
 1Mr Rampton and I withdraw the nice remarks I said earlier.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not upset Mr Rampton, but I had rather
 3encouraged that, I am afraid it is my fault.
 4 MR IRVING:     Deluge was only referring to the shootings on the
 5Eastern Front. Deluge was only responsible for the
 6shootings on the Eastern Front. He was in no way
 7responsible for the concentration camp system which came
 8under a completely different hierarchy. I am sure
 9Mr Rampton knows that.
10 MR RAMPTON:     No, the point is the same.
11 MR IRVING:     But I will move on from there because clearly we
12are not going to ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you want to take a short break, Mr Irving,
14at any stage you only have to ask. You know that, do you
16 MR IRVING:     Can we move on to page 118. We are getting very
17close now to the ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
19 MR IRVING:     You refer to the aerial photographs, but, witness,
20you are not an expert on Auschwitz, so there is no point
21really asking you about this at all, is there? I mean all
22the statements you made about Auschwitz and in these 180
23pages so far are, effectively, off the top of your head,
24because you have not studied it to the same degree other
25witnesses have?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not making statements about Auschwitz. I am making

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 1statements here about what you write about Auschwitz, and
 2this is a particular section here which is, if I can find
 3the beginning of it, about the figures, the numbers
 4killed, and I am trying to go through what you write about
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Are you not familiar with the history of the
 7operation of the Haganah in Germany after World War II?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am not. My point here is that you claim that the
 9Jews who disappeared did not die but were secretly
10transported to Palestine by the Haganah and given new
11identities, rather than have being killed in Auschwitz.
12I have to say I find that quite a fantastic suggestion for
13which you provide no documentary basis, even though in
14other areas, as we have seen repeatedly, you demand the
15most strictest criteria of documentary support for any
16statements made about the Nazis policy towards the Jews
17and what happened to the Jews and so on.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it fair to expand that sentence that you have just
19read out slightly: He has, for instance, claimed that
20some of the Jews who disappeared, because obviously I am
21not claiming that all Jews disappeared went to Palestine?
22What you meant there was that I am saying that some of the
23Jews or a part of or a large part of the Jews but not all
24of, right?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would have to go back to what you wrote there.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Clearly I have not suggested that all the Jews who

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 1disappeared went to Palestine, have I? Do you agree?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am afraid I would have to go back and check. I mean
 3where have the bodies gone from -- "There is no trace in
 4Allies' aerial photographs of mass graves in Auschwitz.
 5Where have the bodies gone?" You have supplied more than
 6one answer. So, these answers may cover different groups
 7of Jews of course.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So you accept then that I am talking about a part of
 9the missing Jews?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, the implication in what you write is clearly it is a
11very significant part, as again your claim that some of
12the missing Jews had fled to Dresden and were killed in
13the February 1945 bombing raid.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we just stay with the Palestine ones? You say that
15you are not familiar with the operations of the Haganah in
16Germany after World War II, operating in conjunction with
17UNRRA, the Refugee and Relief Agency?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am not, no. You do not provide any evidence that
19they were secretly transported to Palestine by the
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you accept that there is a very lengthy report on the
22operations of the Haganah in the American Government
23archives about 250,000 pages long by the Military Governor
24of Germany describing how ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, I am concerned with what you write here and
26what you write is a suggestion which is unsupported by

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 1anything like that, that large numbers of Jews were
 2secretly transported to Palestine by the Haganah and given
 3new identities, therefore, rendered untraceable, and did
 4not die in Auschwitz and other extermination camps or were
 5not shot and killed.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you maintain that this did not happen? You are casting
 7doubt on it?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am not talking about what happened and what did not
 9happen. I am talking about what you present as having
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And the evidence for that?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And the evidence.
13 MR IRVING:     Yes, but I just tried to put to him this lengthy
14report in the American Government archives and the witness
15interrupted me halfway through.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry. What I am trying to say is that irrespective
17of that, you do not cite that as evidence. You are simply
18suggesting, as it seems to me out of thin air, that large
19numbers of Jews were secretly transported to Palestine and
20did not die in Auschwitz.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that I do not write passages like that out
22of thin air?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     That in fact I probably have a very good source which for
25one reason or another I have not identified?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I am sorry, I will not.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, you believe that I write this out of thin
 2air, that I make it up?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not see any evidence that you have not made it up.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you are not prepared to accept my suggestion that
 5there is this very lengthy report in the US National
 6archives on the operations of the Haganah written by the
 7American Military Governor?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, you can suggest whatever you like now. The point is
 9what I am doing is looking in here, in this report, is
10looking at what you have written and said in the past and
11the documentary support or otherwise that you have adduced
12for it.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let us approach from another angle then, Professor. You
14are aware of the fact that there are now substantial
15claims being made against the Swiss and American and
16German companies and so on for compensation? Have you any
17idea how many Holocaust survivors are now claiming
18compensation, a figure?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not know. It depends what you mean by Holocaust
20survivors as well.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, if I say that the number of claimants is 450,000 now
22at the end of the 20th century, the beginning of the 21st
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know where you get that figure
25from. I think Professor Evans is entitled to say, well,
26on what basis are they claiming? Are they claiming

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