Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 217

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    There could have been any one of a number of reasons.
 1experimentation, that is a particular reason. There were
 2numbers of allegedly or so-called pure bred gypsy children
 3who were kept. There were a number of reasons.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any indication on the caption that these were the
 5experimental ones or the gypsy ones?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I really could not say.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     It just says there were children who were in the camp at
 8the time of the liberation?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is no indication of what they are doing there or why
10they were there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     You said also the ones who were sick were also selected
12for death?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On the whole, yes.
14 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I think this is really a little unfair.
15Professor Evans is not a Holocaust expert. Professor van
16Pelt has already told your Lordship, which Mr Irving knows
17perfectly well, that the gas chambers ceased operation in
18October 1944.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, Professor Evans on page 114 has gone in
20some detail into the death books.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. My own feeling is that we went into all
22these questions, particularly the camp registers, in great
23deal with Professor van Pelt. You are right in saying
24that Professor Evans does mention gas chambers in
25Auschwitz, but he has told you he does not regard himself
26as a great expert, besides which Mr Rampton's last

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 1observation does seem to be a fair one, does it not?
 2 MR IRVING:     I completely endorse this, and I always bow to Mr
 3Rampton's wisdom which is far superior ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You do not need to do that.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I have no wisdom but I have a wizard short-term
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is right, is it not, that the gas chambers
 8ceased to exist when they were really destroyed in 1944,
 9so that if there were transports including women and
10children you would expect to find them within the barbed
11wire at Auschwitz in 1945?
12 MR IRVING:     They must have arrived then as children and they
13must have avoided selection somehow as children.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It may be that the selection process stopped
15when the gas chambers disappeared.
16 MR IRVING:     If your Lordship will rule that this witness should
17not be asked questions about Auschwitz, then I will
18happily comply.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I cannot do that, because he has referred
20to Auschwitz in his report and therefore he is, it seems
21to me, amenable to cross-examination on that topic. But
22if I were you, I really would not bother to cover the same
23ground, because you cross-examined Professor van Pelt ----
24 MR IRVING:     I agree, but I am in difficulties because this
25witness has covered the same ground, particularly in his
26footnote, for example, No. 13 where he says: "As we have

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 1seen, the camp records did not include those killed or
 2shortly on arrival".
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know. That is why I am not going to rule
 4out this cross-examination, but I say again, the bits that
 5matter in Professor Evans' report start in, I am afraid it
 6is still 30 pages time when he starts to make the
 7historians' criticisms of you, and that is the meat of his
 8report. But I cannot stop you, it seems to me. I can
 9encourage you to take it quickly.
10 MR IRVING:     Which is what I am doing.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I can suggest you might not think it really
12worth doing at all.
13 MR IRVING:     My Lord, this is short track I am taking at
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right.
16 MR IRVING:     If I could take you now to page 115, we are now
17going to deal with Professor Hinsley. On paragraph 16 you
18say Hinsley did not claim that nearly all the deaths were
19due to disease. Professor Hinsley is of course a
20recognized authority, he is not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is an official British historian of the British
23Intelligence Services?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He was, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     In volume 2 of his work he published an appendix, did he
26not, on the police decodes?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the first line you write, in paragraph 16: "All he
 3wrote was that the British decrypts of encoded radio
 4messages sent from Auschwitz did not mention gassings",
 5but in fact if you look at your footnote 18 on the next
 6page he is slightly more specific, is he not? He says:
 7"The returns from Auschwitz, the largest of the camps
 8with 20,000 prisoners, mentioned illness as the main cause
 9of death", is that correct?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     "It included references to shootings and hangings", and
12then he continues: "There were no references in the
13decrypts to gassing".
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am sorry, I am going to
15interrupt you because I think we may be able to take this
16a bit more shortly. Professor van Pelt said, well, that
17probably is right and it is not very surprising because
18the decrypts were talking about what was going on in the
19camps, and the whole point about the gassing was that it
20was not going on in the camps in that sense. Mr Rampton,
21am I wrong about that?
22 MR RAMPTON:     That is absolutely right.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That was what he said?
24 MR RAMPTON:     That is absolutely right.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Therefore, this point -- I am not saying it
26is not a good point on Hinsley and the decrypts, but that

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 1is the explanation we have had so far.
 2 MR IRVING:     I must have nodded when Professor van Pelt said
 3that, my Lord, because if he had said that I would
 4certainly queried that and said: Well, where were the
 5gassings takings place then?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I can also tell your Lordship, to save coming back
 7to it, this comes from Mr Irving's website, that on 13th
 8September 1941 Deluge, who was the Chief of the Order
 9Police, sent a message to the forces in Russia about
10confidentiality and he said this: "That information which
11is containing State secrets calls for especially secret
12treatment. Into this category fall exact figures
13executions. These are to be sent by courier".
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but that is another point. Am I wrong
15about what I recall Professor van Pelt having said?
16 MR RAMPTON:     No, you are absolutely right. What van Pelt,
17amongst others, has said, it is in his report and I think
18he also said it in the witness box, is you would not
19expect to find details of the gassings on the decrypts for
20two reasons. First, because it was secret, as this
21message suggests, but much more important because the
22people who were gassed on arrival were never registered
23and would not have been subject of the codes anyway.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I thought he had said that. We can look
25up the reference if you are doubtful.
26 MR IRVING:     

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