Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 217

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    Yes, I will read that out, yes. This refers back to a
 1lengthy quote on the previous page where you talk about
 225,000 people being killed in 25 minutes in Pforzheim by
 3an allied air raid in 25 minutes, and in Auschwitz there
 4were 25,000 killed in four years. "When you put things
 5into perspective like that, it diminishes their Holocaust
 6- that word with a capital letter", "their" meaning ,
 7presumably, the Jews.
 8     I point out in the passage that you cite that
 9your equivalence does not stand up to examination, quite
10apart from the gross minimization of the Auschwitz figures
11because you exaggerate the number of deaths caused by the
12Pforzheim raid, which was estimated in a report of the
13Statistical Office of the City of Pforzheim in 1954 not as
1425,000 or 27,000, as you claim, but as 17,600. So you are
15deliberately trying to say 25,000, 25,000, and, in fact,
16it is not that equivalence at all.
17     That does not mean to say that I justify the
18bombing of Pforzheim; that does not come into it at all.
19I am simply trying to talk about the way that you present
20these things.
21 MR IRVING:     Can we just go back to Nuremberg, please? You
22suggest that at the end of paragraph 8 on page 110 that
23the way I juxtaposed those photographs was intended to
24imply to the careless reader that the perpetrators of the
25atrocities were Jews, that the atrocities were committed
26by Jews and that they were getting their -- is there any

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 1justification at all for this suggestion?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It seems to me that that is what seems to be the
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I had better have a look at that.
 5 MR IRVING:     I think your Lordship ought to have a look at it
 6because it is a serious allegation.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I could not find the photographs.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is between 182 and 183.
10 MR RAMPTON:     In Nuremberg it is after 182.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that. Where does it come in the
12great wodge of photographs?
13 MR RAMPTON:     It is after a panorama of Nuremberg Defendants
14with somebody or other giving a -- Robert H Jackson giving
15a speech for the Prosecution, I think.
16 MR IRVING:     I will have the actual book brought tomorrow, your
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton has it; I may have to look at it
19because I have a slight feeling that ----
20 MR RAMPTON:     It is worth looking at the original actually, if
21I may suggest it?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have a feeling the photograph has not for
23some reason found its way into my ----
24 MR RAMPTON:     I think the witness should have it too.
25 MR IRVING:     Again the quality of the photographs is
26remarkable. They are original colour photographs to the

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 1Nuremberg trials and this is the standard I am going for.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not really the point, is it?
 3 MR IRVING:     Well, it is the basis I make the selection of books
 4that I publish.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Actually, I would rather look at the
 6original. Well, the point that Professor Evans is making
 7is, obviously, in reference to the photograph on the
 8left-hand side under the text and they do have a Jewish
10 MR IRVING:     Undoubtedly, they are Jews. Undoubtedly, they are
11also being swept up into the general Holocaust on that
12site. But I think to suggest that by the juxtaposition of
13the photographs I had implied in any way at all that they
14were guilty for whatever had befallen the German troops or
15whatever, that is perverse and unjustified and certainly
16unintentional on my part.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well the caption does say: "A German soldier is found
18mutilated. The German troops take reprisals".
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But, as you know, the reprisal is just swept up, a
20round number of males in the area and liquidated them,
21murdered them?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is a question of what the captions and the pictures
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     But nowhere is it suggested in the caption that the Jewish
25victims on those pictures have been picked for that

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is a matter of suggestion really. It was what the
 2pictures suggest. I mean, of their very nature pictures
 3are suggestive, captions are short. As you say, they are
 4very powerful -- worth a thousand words.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     To summarise, before we move on, this is a page of
 6photographs of victims of the Nazis, is that right?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I believe I say so, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that your suggestion in the previous book that I do not
 9publish photographs of the victims of the Nazis does not
10always hold up?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I say you -- in the previous book I mention that you
12have a picture of the train at Riga. That is the only
13picture of the Nazis' Jewish victims to set aside several
14extremely graphic pictures of the victims of allied
15bombing raids.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, somebody who is minimizing something like that in
17their books is a Holocaust denier, is that part of the
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What you are trying to do -- all of this is about your
20attempt to establish an equivalence between the two, as it
21were, to suggest that essentially all sides in the Second
22World War committed crimes of some dimensions. That is
23what we are really talking about. I think that is an
24element in Holocaust denial.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     In Sir Winston Churchill's books, were there any
26photographs at all of train loads of Jews at Riga or

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 1anywhere else on his History of the Second World War, six
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not recall. I am not sure I see the relevance of
 4that in any case to what you do in your books.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is for his Lordship to decide. If someone like Sir
 6Winston Churchill writes a six-volume history without
 7mentioning the Holocaust or the killing of Jews in seven
 8line, does that make him a Holocaust denier or does it
 9mean times have now changed?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we can do better than take time with
11that question.
12 MR IRVING:     We can indeed, my Lord, we are now going to come to
13a little piece of gold on page 111. In paragraph 10 you
14accuse me once again of exaggerating the numbers killed in
15allied bombing raids. The number of Germans killed in
16allied bombing raids, is that correct?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you do not distort documents or quotations in order to
19justify that kind of allegation?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not sure what you are referring to here.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     All will shortly become plain. Will you go to the next
22paragraph 111?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Here you say on page 441 of Goebbels: "He describes the
25numbers of those killed in the bombing raid on Hamburg on
2627, 26, 28 July 1943 as 'nearly 50,000'".

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