Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 217

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    The sone of one of those German policemen on the
 1platform at Riga has the album of his father, and he
 2provided me with the original negatives to make those
 3prints from. That is why I have picked that particular
 4photograph. It is an identifiable event, an identifiable
 5train load of Jews, arriving at Riga. I do not know what
 6happened to them. One I can only fear the worst for them.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But there is something in the text, I think,
 8about the photograph, is there not, or about this
 9consignment?
10 MR IRVING:     This is five days after the famous Bruns episode,
11my Lord, of November 30th.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I probably have this wrong, but do you not
13somewhere say that the photographic evidence does not bear
14out the notion of cattle trucks and ----
15 MR IRVING:     I did not say that, no, my Lord. The only comment
16there you will find is whatever the caption says.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You certainly do not say it in the caption.
18 MR IRVING:     I certainly do not say it in the caption, and I do
19not think we do deny that there were cattle trucks used in
20the later stages of this atrocity.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, it is simply that you do not mention it in your
22caption.
23 MR IRVING:     In the caption, of course, I can only point out
24what is in this photograph. In the Nuremberg book, if
25I can just jump on one or two pages of your -- do you wish
26to make a comment?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, that is all right.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, what you do say in the text -- I have
 3just found it; it is all a bit jumbled up in the copy --
 4"A rare original photograph shows the next train load of
 51,200 Jews leaving for Riga. Except for one uniformed SD
 6officer near the third open carriage door, the escorts are
 7all elderly German police officers with two Latvian police
 8in the right foreground".
 9 MR IRVING:     Which rather bears out, my Lord, what one of those
10decodes said that a train load of 1,000 or 900 Jews was
11going escorted by 14 local policemen, if you remember?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the point you are trying to make with
13this photograph, is it not?
14 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord. A picture is worth 1,000 words which
15is one reason why I have supplied so many pictures to your
16Lordship rather than documents.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
18 MR IRVING:     It is an original photograph, high quality
19photograph, of the tragedy actually happening, and it is a
20photograph of unquestionable authenticity that was
21supplied to me by one of the policemen's sons.
22     The allegation against me on page 109 is that
23this only picture shows an orderly scene (as though I had
24deliberately picked a photograph with an orderly scene) of
25passenger carriages and people handing luggage out of
26windows, no brutality, no herding and no whips. Well,

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 1I am sorry. Are you suggesting that I should have
 2abandoned this photograph and looked for a more hackneyed
 3stereotyped photograph, Professor?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am afraid I am, yes. I think that you should have
 5balanced out your picture, your extremely gruesome
 6pictures which you put in the book of victims, emotive
 7pictures of victims of the bombing raids, including a dead
 8child clutching the body of an adult over -- a very large
 9reproduced picture. I think you should have balanced that
10with pictures of the victims of the Nazis. If you only
11look at the pictures section, the impression given is
12that, well, how jolly nice this train is at Riga, what a
13nice time they are having?
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the contrary, is that not a picture of the utter
15banality of this kind of atrocity, that there are people
16handing baggage out of windows and stepping on to a
17platform ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, there is no mention of any atrocity there in the
19caption at all.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So how do you react to the suggestion that
21the reason for not including the sort of picture you have
22just been describing is the utter banality of those kinds
23of photographs? I think that was the suggestion.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I find that very hard to accept, that pictures of,
25let us say, the victim, people about to be shot by the
26Einsatzgruppen lining up in front of a ditch are banal

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 1pictures. It does not matter how many times they are
 2reproduced, they still remain, I think, very shocking.
 3 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, how often have you seen pictures
 4in my books that are familiar to you from other people's
 5books? Never? Once?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Plenty of portraits, I think, which I am familiar with.
 7You include lots of portraits of individuals which are
 8quite familiar.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Colour ones or black and white?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Some of these pictures are not familiar. I am not
11disputing that these original pictures that you got, that
12they are very high quality, and so on. What I am talking
13about is the balance of the presentation and, indeed, the
14captions.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You wanted me to include the fact that travel without food
16and water, for example, if I look at the second line from
17the end of that paragraph?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not if they did not, no.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     The evidence is from the decodes that they did, that they
20had the food and water they needed for these journeys?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That the people who travelled in the autumn of 1941 on
22these particular trains did, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     But that is what this picture shows, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I am not saying you should not have included that
25picture. I am saying that you should have had a balanced
26selection.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     I should have skewed it the other way?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not a question of skewing; it is question of
 3balance. What you have is an illustration section with
 4some very good pictures, original ones that I have not
 5seen before, absolutely authentic, rare, and so on. But
 6that these give the impression, the way they are
 7cumulatively arranged, that there were massive numbers of
 8victims of allied bombings, and that that is, as you say,
 948,000 people died in devastating Holocaust in Hamburg.
10You are trying to establish, at the very least, I think,
11an equivalence, and the impression given by the imbalanced
12selection of pictures is that it is more -- that the
13bombing of German cities is a more serious crime than the
14killing of millions of Jews. That is what I take from
15your -- not having seen it before, that is what I take it
16from your illustration section.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there no equivalence between these crimes -- not on any
18level?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The question is that the bombing by allied
20planes of German cities is morally equivalent to the
21extermination that Professor Evans believes took place, is
22that the question?
23 MR IRVING:     In certain circumstances it was and that is
24certainly...
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is your reaction to that, Professor
26Evans?

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