Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition
Pages 141 - 145 of 217
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1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But there are well-known attested photographs of the
2shootings, for example, which you could have included.
3There is a selection of photographs you could well have
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you accept that as a publisher of books where we
6attach importance to high quality photographs, we are
7faced with the problem when it comes to finding
8photographs of concentration camp or extermination camp
9victims or mass shootings?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think that that was your motive for not including
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you accept that there are problems, that the archives
13do not hold such photographs?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. I will not accept that. I think there are such
15photographs of photographs.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Are there photographs of unimpeachable quality and
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Quality, some of them, obviously, are not of very high
19quality, but it is still, I think, incumbent on anyone who
20wishes to give a balanced view of who were the victims of
21the Second World War and wants to include photographs of
22them, to try to give a balanced selection of photographs
23on both sides, and not just put the German victims of
24allied bombing raids, and having the only photograph of
25the Nazis' Jewish victims is of a train at Riga, a series
26of passenger carriages, and people handing luggage out of
2 Q. [Mr Irving] We will come back to that picture in a minute. But can I
3ask you, are you familiar with the scandal surrounding the
4German photographic exhibition of atrocity photographs
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The Vermacht Exhibition, yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, what was the complaint about most of those
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It was, well, this is a complex issue because there are
10allegations and counter allegations on both sides.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Has the Exhibition been closed down?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It has been withdrawn for -- the issue here, my Lord, is
13that there has been an exhibition, a travelling
14exhibition, in Germany of crimes of the German Army in the
15Second World War which includes a number of photographs
16which it is now alleged by critics of the Exhibition were
17not, in fact, of victims of the German Army at all, but
18victims of the Russian NKVD; and there are counter
19allegations that these allegations have been brought by
20people with extreme right-wing connections and to
21discredit the view that the German Army was not behaving
23 MR IRVING: I interrupt you there and ask ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I am quite interested in that.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- and it is an extremely, it is a complex issue. But
26I think it is clear that some of the photographs there are
1not genuine photograph and not what they purport to be,
2though it is equally clear that I think that some of them
3most probably are, and the Exhibition has been withdrawn
4in order to try to sort all this out by means of
5research. That does not mean to say, of course, that
6there are no photographs which you could have used.
7 MR IRVING: Is it not true that the Exhibition was finally
8closed as a result of two learned papers published in
9learned journals, one by an Hungarian historian and one by
10a Polish historian?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Indeed, and, according to an article in Das Spiegel ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving] And they are not extreme right-wingers?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] According to an article in Das Spiegel, these are two
14people who have extreme right-wing connections. Now, that
15does not necessarily invalidate everything they have said,
16but, as I recall the controversy, that the counter
17argument is that their criterion for what is a crime of
18the German Army is extremely narrow. They will not
19accept, for example, these two authors will not accept,
20that crimes carried out by local units in Lithuania, or
21wherever it might be, at the behest of the German Army are
22crimes of the German Army. So it is a very convoluted
24 But the point at issue is that -- to come back
25to it -- are you really saying that there no pictures, no
26genuine pictures, at all anywhere of any victims of the
1Nazis? You could just as well have put up photographs of
2people who were killed by the Nazis. You could have had a
3photograph of Anne Frank, for example.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The case that is being made is that there are
5no good quality bona fide such photographs. That is what
6you have put, Mr Irving?
7 MR IRVING: Absolutely right, and I am about to move on to the
8justification for that in a second.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I do not accept that there are no bona fide
10photographs is my answer to that and that, irrespective of
11the quality, it does behove a balanced historian who
12wishes to give an objective account of these events to
13include something other than just photographs of the
14victims of allied bombing raids on Hamburg and...
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Before we leave the Exhibition, is it right, have you
16heard it said that the reason why German historians were
17frightened to write the learned pages that would expose
18the Exhibition in the way the Hungarian did is because
19they would then have been prosecuted under German law?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have not heard that, no.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] You accept that the photographs that I published in my
22books, both in the Hitler biography and in the Nuremberg
23history, are original photographs from original negatives,
24do you accept that?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It looks like it, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] The photograph which you object to, a photograph of a
1train load of Jews at Riga station -- it might be useful
2if his Lordship sees the photograph?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am not saying it is not genuine.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I remember it really.
5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am really not saying it is not genuine. Nowhere do
6I say that.
7 MR IRVING: Will you accept the photograph was given to me from
8an album taken ----
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not doubting its genuineness.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, it is perfectly OK.
11 MR IRVING: It is a question of the selection of the photograph
12and the reason I selected that rather than one of the more
13traditional pictures which you are familiar with.
14 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship might care to look at the file copy.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I was reminding myself why it is there.
16 MR RAMPTON: The file copy has been skewed because one of the
17pages is the wrong way round. Can I pass up a copy of the
19 MR IRVING: I am indebted to you. While that is being passed,
20if I can explain, perhaps, by way of a question that
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I have got it, but maybe I am wrong.
23 MR IRVING: My Lord, the son of one of those policemen, you can
24see on the platform at Riga ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have it.
26 MR IRVING:
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