Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 217

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    Your question, as I understood, was purely about
 1actual mentions in the book?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It was more whether the index would suggest
 3that there was quite a lot that was not repeated in the
 41991 edition gives a fair impression of whether there were
 5significant omissions and the answer that Professor Evans
 6has given is yes.
 7 MR IRVING:     The 1991 edition was a very truncated edition in
 8its original incarnation.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That makes it even odder.
10 MR IRVING:     At page 100, please, Professor Evans, we are
11dealing now with the biography of Hermann Goring. You
12have in the fourth line of that paragraph noted that the
13book was published in 1989. What conclusions do you draw
14from that?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That you had completed it, roughly speaking, a year or
16slightly less before.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So what you are suggesting is that by that time I had
18taken on board the Leuchter report, is that right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. That would be my assumption, the way books were
20published.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     You had my diaries available when you wrote your report,
22or researchers had the diaries available. Can I read to
23you the entry in my diary of January 11th 1988, which is
24only one line long, "January 11th 1998, 4.45 p.m. posted
25rest of Goring by Data Post courier to New York". Will
26you take it that that implies that the book was completed

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 1on January 11th 1988 therefore?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, though of course then you have the opportunity to
 3make revisions in the proof.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept therefore that the book was delivered to
 5the publishers three months before I first set eyes on
 6Fred Leuchter or the Leuchter report?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The manuscript yes, but you do have the opportunity to
 8make changes to the proof, do you not?
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that, if I did not make such changes in proof stage,
10therefore this would invalidate any points you seek to
11make based on the presumption that I had the Leuchter
12report information at that time?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is an interesting point, but it does not really
14affect what I say about the Goring book.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you are seeking to make some kind of watershed around
16the time that I learned of the Leuchter report as being
17April 1988, this is significance that the Goring book was
18completed before the watershed and delivered to
19publishers. Are you familiar with the fact that
20publishers frown on any kind of proof stage corrections,
21their authors' corrections, charges levied, are you
22familiar with that?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is a matter of negotiation. You can usually make up to
24about 10 per cent changes. It is matter of negotiating
25percentages of what you are allowed to change. It depends
26on the publisher and so on.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you any evidence that the manuscript that I delivered
 2to the publisher in January 1988 was different from that
 3subsequently published in 1989?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, I do not.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, the Goring book counts as a pre watershed
 6book and there is no evidence to the contrary?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Unless what you are telling me is that the watershed might
 8have been slightly earlier than the Leuchter report, which
 9is a very interesting point. What I have to say about the
10Goring book does not really depend on that. That is, if
11you like, an assumption on my part which may have been
12wrong. What is important about it is that you point to it
13as evidence that you are not a Holocaust denier, and
14I examine it briefly on pages 100 to 103, and point out
15that what you say in the book is not incompatible with
16Holocaust denial.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but at the time you wrote that you presumed that
18I was post watershed, so speak, and that was why you
19confidently adopted these interpretations.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I adopted the interpretation on the basis of what
21I read.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know of any evidence that Hermann Goring was aware
23of the goings on in Auschwitz, the mass extermination in
24gas chambers which is part of the Holocaust story?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Oh goodness.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Any documentary evidence?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not presented any documentary evidence for the
 2court. I am not really concerned with that issue. What
 3I am concerned with in this section are your views on the
 4Holocaust as exemplified by the Goring book.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did I not write in the Hermann Goring book on pages 343 to
 69, this is your second line at page 101, that in the
 7winter of 1941 to 42 Goring heard rumours of mass killings
 8in the East, which is of course what we all accept
 9happened, that there were these mass killings?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The operative word there I think is "rumours".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You continue: The surviving documents provide no proof
13that these killings were systematic, they yield to no
14explicit orders from above and the massacres themselves
15were carried out by the local Nazis, by no means all of
16German, points which I think you have now admitted are
17wrong.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now that we have access since 1988 when this manuscript
19was delivered to the police decodes, we are able to
20establish with much greater detail, is this not correct,
21precisely how these things happened?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but part of my point is that in 1977 in Hitler's War
23you took a rather different attitude to these matters.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Different altitude in which direction?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You accepted much more that there was systematic mass
26murder of Jews.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the Eastern Front, the shootings or altogether?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Altogether.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, at that time I accepted the whole package
 4uncritically?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Oh, I do not know whether it was uncritical or not. You
 6seem to accept a large part of it, certainly that there
 7were mass murders of many millions of Jews, including the
 8use of gas. I think you did accept that in 1977, and
 9there really is not any evidence in the Goring book that
10you accept it there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     You appreciate that, when I wrote the Hermann Goring book,
12I did so on the basis of his as yet unpublished diaries
13and other documents to which I had had very limited or
14exclusive access like the entire transcripts of his
15conferences and documents like that, which other
16historians had not seen, and therefore I was probably
17entitled to express a view of my own on the basis of those
18documents?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. It is a matter of how you comment on these things.
20If you cite, as you do on page 469, Goring claiming under
21interrogation that the extermination camps were merely
22propaganda, I always thought he said there were places
23where people were put to useful work, you do not actually
24comment on that, you just seem to accept that.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, I should have done what an establishment
26historian would do and immediately pooh-pooh the notion

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