Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 217

<< 1-5216-217 >>
    At page 96 you refer to the fact that from the
 1testimony of Morgen and Lorenz and the Slovak Jews has
 2entirely vanished".
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which Slovac Jews are you referring to?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Verba and one other.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Verba and Wetzler, is that correct?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it possible that I had learned something between the
 9two editions that made me totally distrust the evidence of
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How can he know that unless you put what it
13 MR IRVING:     Thank you, my Lord, for inviting this. Will you
14turn to the little bundle, please?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I can cut this short. I footnote this. I explain in
16footnote 14 on page 97, since having written this book in
171977, you said, "I understand that that Slovac report is
18open to some question", so I point that out.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It was not just open to some question.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, that is what you said.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Could you go to pages 4 and 5 of the little bundle F?
22This goes to a rather wider issue in fact than just the
23footnoting. Pages 4 and 5 of the little bundle F, is this
24an article from the Toronto Star as reproduced on my
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is an article in your website. It is not reproduced in

.   P-121

 1the original. It is not a photocopy. It is copied.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it purport to be reproduced from an article from the
 3Toronto Star dated January 24th 1985?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It does purport to be that, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is the headline, "Book an artistic picture, survivor never
 6saw actual gassing deaths"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is the headline, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it an account of testimony given by the afore mentioned
 9Verba in the Toronto trial of Zundel in which, under
10cross-examination, Verba, and this is the indented
11passage, "yesterday admitted he was never inside that
12particular bunker" and Verba had seen, it was the roof he
13had seen of the mortuary and not a gas chamber. That is
14the indented passage.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does the rest of the article suggest that Verba was not a
17very reliable eyewitness of what he claimed to have seen
18or reported on?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It suggests that there are some aspects of what he
20original originally said were not reliable but he insists
21that others were, according to the article.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I am sure, if he had been in Auschwitz as he
23undoubtedly was, he was able to testify to certain aspects
24of what he had seen, but on the important issue of the
25goings on in gas chambers, it turned out he was not an
26eyewitness and was therefore in no sense reliable as a

.   P-122

 1witness. Is that correct?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I do point that out in the footnote, as I have had
 3said. You understand it is open to some question. It
 4seems to me a fair comment.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Your Lordship will appreciate that the reason I have
 6brought that to your Lordship's attention is it goes to
 7the question of eyewitnesses again. This was an
 8eyewitness of crematorium No. 2, the big building. It
 9turns out that he collapsed under cross-examination in
10Toronto. Under that circumstance was I right therefore in
11later editions of the book to omit his testimony or
12reference to it?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It depends rather on what testimony you were omitting.
14For example, he does say that he heard things from
15reliable sources, that he insisted he had made accurate
16estimates of the number of murder victims, and so on.
17But, if those passages which you omitted concerned those
18which he himself admitted were wrong, then of course you
19were right to omit them.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you. Can we now go to page 100, where we are now
21dealing with my biography of Hermann Goring. Do you have
22that in paragraph 1?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are we leaving Hitler's War?
25 MR IRVING:     For the moment.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I realise for the moment. Can I ask

.   P-123

 1Professor Evans a general question? It may be rather
 2difficult for you because you may not have it all in mind
 3at the moment. In so far as reference was made to the
 4Jews in the first edition of Hitler's War 1977, and the
 5references to Jews in the second edition 1991,
 6quantitatively and indeed qualitatively, I suppose, did
 7you notice a significant difference? I have just been
 8looking at the indexes in both instances. Are the
 9excisions significant?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, they are. Mr Irving himself said that he removed all
11references to extermination camps and death factories from
12the 1991 edition which I quote on page 100 near the top,
13so they are significant changes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Sorry, Mr Irving, you are going on to
16 MR IRVING:     Yes. If the witness again says that I removed all
17reference to extermination camps and death camps, then
18I draw attention to the fact that the word "exterminate"
19occurs 28 times in the second edition of the book, my
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not quite the same thing, of course.
22 MR IRVING:     Did I understand your Lordship to say that you were
23comparing the indexes of the two volumes?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I was.
25 MR IRVING:     May I draw attention to the fact that the index of
26the 1991 edition that you have there was prepared by the

.   P-124

 1American publishing company Avon, which was highly
 2inadequate, whereupon we commissioned a separate index,
 3which I can provide your Lordship. We have that index
 4available. It is about 50 pages long of typescript, much
 5more comprehensive, and a comparison ----
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that the index being different may
 7have been rather less detailed in one case than the other,
 8but it may be a worth while exercise to see what was there
 9in the first edition and what has come out.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The point, Mr Irving, is that you yourself, as I note in
11paragraph 2, page 93, drew attention in your written reply
12to the Defence, you drew attention to the 1991 index
13entries as evidence that you were not a Holocaust denier.
14So I am puzzled as to why you should be disputing the
15accuracy of it.
16 MR IRVING:     I draw attention to the pages referenced by those
17indexes but, of course the actual index itself which his
18Lordship is doing a statistical comparison with, he should
19therefore use the correct index rather than this rather
20cheap index produced by the Americans. The third edition
21of the book which is going to press this month has an even
22better index being prepared. But, once again, the index
23is not -- can I now proceed to Hermann Goring?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. That was my fault, sorry.
25 MR IRVING:     Your question, as I understood, was purely about
26the comparison between the indexes of the two or the

.   P-125

<< 1-5216-217 >>