Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 217

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    No. Not in the case of scholarly works of history. My
 1they were genuine, and accept some responsibility for
 2them. Otherwise you would not have drawn attention to
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you do accept that, in the case of all my books with
 5the exception of one, I have no part in the preparation of
 6the index?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you say so.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How does that work? I am asking you because
 9you are the witness. How easy is it for the writer of
10Hitler's War, for example, to get somebody else to do his
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think, my Lord, correct me if I am wrong, what would
13happen is that an author would simply say to the
14publisher, well, employ a professional indexer, and there
15are such individuals, and take the money off my royalties,
16something like that, to pay the fee.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I follow how it might work financially, but what I do not
18understand at the moment is how the professional indexer
19is going to know what to put in the index.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, that is a problem. They are professional indexers
21so they use their own judgment as to what is important and
22what is not. You start with place names, person names,
23and then a number of subjects that you think are important
24in the book.
25 MR IRVING:     As the author of some 30 books, perhaps I can
26explain to your Lordship that there is a professional

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 1society of indexers and there is actually a British
 2Standard for indexes, believe it or not. The wise author
 3is well advised to leave the index to the professionals
 4rather than to attempt to do it himself. The only book
 5that I have indexed in fact was The Destruction of
 6Dresden, the recent edition?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I disagree with that. I think a wise author should index
 8his or her own books. It is a way you maintain control
 9over what the index says.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Except you cannot draw conclusions from the content of the
11indexes of my books as to the author of those books, if
12I say that the author did not write the index.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Mr Irving, you are the one who drew attention to the index
14in your reply to the Defence of the second Defendant. You
15cite index entries as evidence of what you write about the
16Holocaust. That is the only reason why I use the index so
17you yourself rely on them.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want get sucked into this particular morass.
19Will you agree that the only reason the index was cited
20was to draw the attention to pages that were there by
21reference and not to the actual index itself?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes. Obviously.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you now have a look please at page 93, just going back,
24you refer to the fact that these editions of Hitler's War
25were published under the same cover, line one?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you will agree with me, do you not, that you comment
 2frequently on my having omitted things from the later
 3edition of my book, that passages were omitted?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, in particular references to the Holocaust.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you accept that Hitler's War in the first edition
 6was 959 pages long, that is this edition, the first
 7edition, and that The War Path was 328 pages, and that the
 81991 all in one edition was less than a thousand pages, so
 9there must have been substantial abridgement in order to
10fit them all into one volume?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes. It is not the fact of abridgement that I am
12commenting on but what is excised.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that, in the course of abridgement, by
14virtue of the task of abridgement, things get omitted?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes, of course. That is what abridgement is.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 93, paragraph 1, two lines from the end, you say, the
17liquidation programme and the systematic murder
18are 'notions' as much as Hitler's knowledge of them. Are
19you suggesting that the word 'notions' is mine? You put
20it in quotation marks.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. I quote you here saying that Hitler made statements
22in 1942 and 3 which are incompatible with the notion that
23he knew the liquidation programme had begun and that
24Europe's Jews had been systematically murdered.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept from me that a digital search of the text
26for the word "notions" found it only once in a 1940

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 1reference to the French campaign?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, "notion" is in the singular. That is why the plural
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Notion or notions. In other words, once again, you put a
 5word in quotation marks as though it is by me which is not
 6actually by me. It is just your word.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, it is. It is your word.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am just saying it is not, because I have done a
 9word search on the entire text and it is not in there.
10Will you now carry on to page 93, the last line, that
11I have removed all mention of the word 'extermination'
12from the book.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have to say I do not accept that. I am quoting your
14words there, the notion that you knew a liquidation
15programme had begun. It is in the introduction to the
161991 edition.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you look at the last line of that page, please, the
18introduction to the 1977 edition of the book? I am sorry,
19in the later edition of the book, I have removed all
20mention of 'extermination', is that correct?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am trying to find this. Where is it?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     The last line of page 93 and the first line of page 94.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The introduction? Yes.
24 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I intervene to correct an error by
25Mr Irving, no doubt perhaps not for the last time. Page
2690 of the introduction to Hitler's War, first complete

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 1paragraph, "On several occasions in 1942 and 1943 Hitler
 2made in private statements which are incompatible with the
 3notion that he knew that a liquidation programme had
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is right, Mr Irving, is it not?
 6 MR IRVING:     Yes. Will you now go to the last line of 93 and
 7the first line of 94, where you say that I have removed
 8all mention of the word 'extermination'?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No. I do not say that.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     All mention of ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The introduction -- let me read those sentences. The
12first reference in the introduction on pages 17 to 21 is
13the defence of Irving's views of Hitler. "It has already
14been pointed out above how it differs from the
15corresponding introduction to the 1977 edition of the book
16in removing all mention of the extermination of the Jews".
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that the word 'exterminate' or
18'extermination' occurs 29 times in that book?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It depends in reference to who.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is the introduction I am talking about.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did not hear your answer, Professor Evans.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am referring to the introduction. I am not claiming
23that the word does not occur in the whole book.
24 MR IRVING:     At page 96 you refer to the fact that from the
25second edition of 1991, the 1991 edition, looking at the
26first line of paragraph 7, "Even more strikingly the

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