Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition
Pages 111 - 115 of 217
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1 MR IRVING: Of course we are not talking just about the
2shootings on the East, are we?
3 MR RAMPTON: Just, no.
4 MR IRVING: We are talking about we have a major problem with
5what happened elsewhere.
6 MR RAMPTON: We are talking about something like 1.2 million
7people, on Mr Irving's figures.
8 MR IRVING: I think that the question I should have asked is,
9is there a vast body of documentation giving evidence,
10providing details, of the policy of extermination in
11Auschwitz and the other camps like that?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is not what I say. All I am trying to do here is to
13advise the court that there is a very large quantity of
14documentation, something which I am sure the court now
16 Q. [Mr Irving] On page 79 at line 5 you refer to a recent Holocaust
17denial work. Is this a massive tome by one Barbara
18Kulaszka with the title: "Did Six Million Really Die"?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I cannot recall whether it is a massive tome.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] It is about 650 pages, A4 size?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Edited.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Edited. Am I right in saying that this is an account by
23Barbara Kulaszka of the trial in Toronto on the history of
24Auschwitz, shall we say?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is right, on the Zundel trial.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Am I right in saying that Barbara Kulaszka, being a
1solicitor of the Court of Ontario, is an officer of the
2court and well qualified to write this kind of summary?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That, I am not sure. I think she has some kind of legal
4status. I took this to be a work of Holocaust denial from
6 Q. [Mr Irving] So that a summary of the evidence for the Prosecution and
7the Defence in a law court can be taken to be a work of
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whether it could or it could not, it has
10nothing to do with this case.
11 MR IRVING: My Lord, the reason I am bringing it to your
12Lordship's attention is that I have provided in the little
13bundle a two-page summary at pages 20 and 21 by this
14solicitor of the issues of Holocaust denial which is a
15very useful summary of what is said about it and what the
16various authorities are. That is from that particular
17publication. Your Lordship might find it useful at some
18time just to digest its contents. I put it no stronger
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do take Barbara Kulaszka to be an advocate of Holocaust
21denial from the contents of what she writes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, because a solicitor writes an account of
23the trial of a Holocaust denier, giving the Prosecution
24and Defence case, it is the work of Holocaust denial?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me say, I do not think it is a neutral account and the
26fact that she is a solicitor is neither here nor there.
1 MR RAMPTON: No. In fact, I am told that she was Zundel's
2solicitor and also Mr Irving's.
3 MR IRVING: Well, of course, Mr Rampton will be familiar with
4the concept that she is an officer of the court and is
5subject to certain basic principles and etiquettes. My
6Lord, might I suggest that we pause there for our lunch
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, the time has come, certainly. Where are
9we going after the adjournment?
10 MR IRVING: We will make future progress into the parts your
11Lordship is interested in.
12 MR RAMPTON: I have laid hands on (because they have been given
13to me) some pages showing recent references on Mr Irving's
14website, I think it is Mr Irving's website, to what he
15calls some "traditional enemies of free speech".
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you got a copy?
17 MR RAMPTON: We have had these printed out. It may not be the
18whole story by any means.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful. Thank you very much.
20Then you can return to this, if you want to, Mr Irving,
21briefly at 2.00. So 2 o'clock.
22 (Luncheon adjournment)
24Professor Evans, recalled.
25Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving?
1 MR IRVING: My Lord, we are now well into Holocaust denial and
2trying to make forward progress. Professor Evans, have
3you had any discussion since Thursday with anybody else
4about the evidence you are giving, or with the instructing
5solicitors in this case?
6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] None at all? You know that you are not allowed to, do you
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do indeed, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask you to go to page 89 of your expert report
11please, looking at paragraph 5: "The murder by shooting
12of thousands of Jews is not the same as the extermination
13by shooting, gassing starvation and deliberate neglect of
14millions of Jews which forms an essential part of the
15Holocaust as conventionally understood".
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] No doubt you mean the shooting or gassing or starvation or
18deliberate neglect -- is that right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, of course.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] You do accept that I have written in most of my books, in
21recent years certainly, about the shootings in a way which
22makes it quite plain that I do not deny that they took
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] So we are limiting really the allegations of Holocaust
26denial to the more narrow front of the fact that I call
1into doubt the existence of gas chambers for mass
2extermination of Jews.
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I think that is one very important element in it. As
4I say here, there are a number of different elements to
5Holocaust denial. One of them is what I call here the
6extermination by shooting, gassing starvation and
7deliberate neglect of millions of Jews, plus the
8systematic nature of this, plus the number, the millions
9of Jews as opposed to thousands, as I put it there, and
10the allegation of the fabrication of evidence for the
11Holocaust as conventionally understood. All those things
12belong together, as I said this morning.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] I am moving forward now into the hundreds, I think. I did
14ask you -- this is a written question, in fact page 91.
15You commented once or twice on the index to my books.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Oh, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] You say that you write the index of your own books?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you accept that most reputable publishers in fact have
20the index prepared by an outside indexing professional?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. Not in the case of scholarly works of history. My
22experience in research books authors, historians, are very
23keen to index their own books. In any case, my comment on
24indexing is simply because, in your written reply to the
25Defence, you draw attention to index entries in your
26books, so I assume that that meant that you accepted that
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