Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 96 - 100 of 181

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you refer to the Germar Rudolf report in any of your
 2expert paragraphs?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     To be honest, I am not quite sure. Certainly not in any
 4detail. My report is not about Auschwitz.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I could be fairly criticised for having relied entirely
 6on the Leuchter report, does it not take the sting out of
 7a lot of that criticism, in your view, that subsequent
 8reports which were also available to me did the Leuchter
 9job but better, if I can put it like that?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I really cannot comment on that, Mr Irving. I thought
11this had been gone through in Professor van Pelt's report
12and in your cross-examination of him. My concern is not
13with Auschwitz. I am not an expert on these matters.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     The tactical reason I have for putting this to you is that
15my friends tell me that I have not hammered this into his
16Lordship's consciousness enough?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, to leave me out of it in that case if you are -- if
18you are doing the hammering, I will get out of the way in
19that particular one.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Forgive me. What has not penetrated my ----
21 MR IRVING:     I am sure it has now, my Lord, because it is now in
22the transcript, purely that the Leuchter report was
23superseded by other reports on which I also relied in
24continuing to make the statements that I did.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I knew you relied on later reports, yes.
26That I had understood.

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 1 MR IRVING:     There is no harm in repetition, is there?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Within reason, no. Anyway, I just wanted to
 3make sure I knew what you thought I had not understood.
 4 MR IRVING:     What do you think of Mr Kershaw as an historian on
 5Adolf Hitler, Ian Kershaw, Professor Kershaw?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think he is a good historian.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     A good historian? If I tell you that he declined to
 8testify for us in my case here because his knowledge of
 9German was totally insufficient, would that change your
10opinion of the books he writes about the leader of the
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You would have to provide me with a copy of the document
13in which he says that before I could accept that that is
14what he said.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You quote Robert Harris in the book "Selling Hitler" on
16paragraph 2.4.8 of your report?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Give me the page number, please.
18 MR IRVING:     I do not have the page number in front of me.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We had it just a moment ago, did we not? Was
20it 700 or 600 and something?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Much earlier, I think, my Lord.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We can find it on the transcript.
23 MR IRVING:     We have time, my Lord, because I have come to the
24end of my prepared questions on this topic and it may be
25your Lordship will not want me to ask questions about
26bundle E which is what I was proposing to do afterwards.

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 1 MS ROGERS:     212.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     212. Yes. I remember 212. Ask this and
 3then we will consider bundle E.
 4 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 248. You quote Robert Harris in "Selling
 5Hitler", "when the forensic tests shortly afterwards
 6revealed the Hitler diaries definitively as fakes, Irving
 7issued a statement accepting the finding but drawing
 8attention to the fact that he had been the first person to
 9unmask them as forged". Do you remember that passage?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It is not the one we have here.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     2.4.8?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is much earlier on, I think.
13 MS ROGERS:     39.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 MR IRVING:     "Irving issued a statement accepting the forgery
16finding but drawing attention to the fact that he had been
17the first person to unmask them as forged. 'Yes', said a
18reporter from The Times" I am quoting from your report,
19"when this was read out to him, 'and the last person to
20declare them authentic'." Do you remember that passage?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have got that, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it not have been more accurate to write that this
23was Robert Harris quoting me as saying that rather than me
24saying that?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is footnoted, Mr Irving. Footnote 26 refers to
26"Harris, Selling Hitler, page 359". So it is perfectly

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 1clear that it is Harris.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     But it is reported speech?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, it is in Harris's book. It is quite clear in my
 4book that it is in Harris's book.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Reverting to standards on anti-Semitism, what do you
 6know about the statements made by leading politicians on
 7the Jews during the war? Were they anti-Semitic in any
 8degree, people like Winston Churchill or Anthony Eadon or
 9Lord Halifax? Are you familiar with any of the things
10that they said?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not, no.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. I just want to put to you a little clip of extracts
13that I made from some of their private diaries, and I do
14not propose to read these out.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you just help me ----
16 MR IRVING:     It is headed: "Anti-Semitism in the diaries".
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- as to their relevance?
18 MR IRVING:     The relevance? It is arguable, my Lord. I was
19going to say on a scale of 1 to 10 is Lord Halifax mildly
20anti-Semitic if these ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but what if he is? I mean, help me about
23 MR IRVING:     Then the question I was going to say is on the
24scale of what you know from my private diaries, what
25number do I reach? 1, 0.5?
26 MR RAMPTON:     I mean, the fact that these well-known people are,

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 1as I can plainly see, having looked at some of this stuff,
 2guilty of the same kind of blatant anti-Semitism as
 3Mr Irving takes us nowhere.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a "so what?" point really?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it is a "so what?" point with a big question
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That must be right, must it not, Mr Irving?
 8I mean, the charge is made against you of anti-Semitism.
 9That may or may not be justified. It may be partly
10justified, I do not know. That is something I have got to
12 MR IRVING:     But if I was told that I was only one-tenth as
13anti-Semetic as somebody as respectable as Anthony Eadon,
14for example, or as Lord Halifax, then I would be able to
15sleep more peacefully at night, than when I read in the
16newspapers that I am the bogey man in the nursery.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I am afraid I take the view that we
18have to decide what anti-Semitism consists of, first of
19all, and then I have got to look and see what you have
20said and written and decide whether that constitutes
21anti-Semitism or is evidence of anti-Semitism.
22 MR IRVING:     I tried to get an explanation from the witness
23as ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not helped by knowing what -- I mean,
25times have changed, apart from anything else.
26 MR IRVING:     

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