Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 181

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have read the transcripts. I have not heard the tape
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you see any material in those transcripts to support
 4the belief that I had benefited in some way from my aura
 5as a neo-Nazi or as a fascist or whatever I am called?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What I actually say is ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On page 604, paragraph 8, as you explain, "'I have
 9interviewed scores of the principal German officers and
10personnel involved, including many of Hitler's close staff
11who have hitherto refused to talk to anybody, but who felt
12able to talk at length to me because of the nature of my
13previous books "The Destruction of Dresden" etc.'."
14 MR IRVING:     Yes.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And I quote the Journal of Historical Review again, saying
16that "'numerous survivors of the Second World War era who
17are often mistrustful (often with good reason) of
18establishment historians' are willing to talk to you".
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     And another quote here from you: "'Once they'd won your
21confidence and they knew you weren't going to report them
22to the state prosecutor, they trusted you. And they
23thought, well, now at last they were doing their
24chief's'", that is Hitler, "'a service'."
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is you, is it not?

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this in any sense improper, do you think?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not use the word "improper".
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not a fact that by using this non-confrontational
 4method of interviewing people you sometimes wheedle more
 5out of them over the years than if one was to go there
 6with all the methods of a Fleet Street journalist,
 7cheating them the moment they had given the information
 8and ridiculing them? That my method in the long term
 9resulted in a much greater benefit for the historical
10community because I extracted the information, the data
11from them, is that not a fact, by using my methods?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I do not know accept your rather harsh verdict on
13Fleet Street journalists and you would have to show me
14some examples of what they had done but ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not let us worry about that.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But, that aside ----
17 MR IRVING:     The Swabians say zote und zote(?).
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     --- do not dispute, Mr Irving, that you have obtained a
19lot of information which other people have not obtained.
20 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with the collections of documents
21that I donated to the West German government and also to
22the Institute of History in Munich?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I know that you have donated collections of documents,
24yes, and I am familiar with some parts of them.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that historian around the world have frequently made
26use of these collections of documents?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     They have been used by other historians, indeed, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that many of these documents are of high
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     They are of a variable value, but some are valuable, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     The curate's egg, we used to say?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is a mixed bag -- as any collection of documents.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. There are some very high grade private diaries of
 8Hitler's private staff which nobody else has ever seen
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, and which you have published. I am not disputing any
11of this.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, people take with the one hand what they
13like about me, but with the other hand they are quite
14happy to ridicule me and smear me in public as a racist
15and Anti-Semite because they do not like the way I write
16my books?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not really a question.
18 MR IRVING:     Have you read the review that Professor Martin
19Broszat wrote of my book "Hitler's War" in the quarterly
20Journal of the Institute of Contemporary History?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I am familiar with it.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a pretty corrosive review in parts, is it not?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar that there were personal reasons why
25Professor Martin Broszat would want to write corrosively
26about something I had written?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think that, well, not personally, but you claim that
 2there are. I am familiar with your allegation that there
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     If he married a lady ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, before we go on, I do not know
 6what you are getting at.
 7 MR IRVING:     I am going to keep it very low profile, my Lord.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What possible relevance has the malice of
 9somebody who has reviewed one of your books got to the
10present case?
11 MR IRVING:     Because the review written by Professor Martin
12Broszat is very heavily relied on by all the expert
13witnesses as evidence of my perversity and, for example,
14that is the origin of the Hitler's Table Talk distortion.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I can see the experts might share Professor
16Broszat's view of your historiography, but it is the
17expert's own opinion that accounts.
18 MR IRVING:     You know how one little shout brings down the
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     May I make two points there? One is that I have
21reinvestigated, as it were, reresearched, all the points
22made by Professor Broszat so that I am not reliant on what
23he says. The second point is I can direct you to my
24answer to your 11th question in the first set that you
25sent on 30th December.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have not read it.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "If Broszat had personal motives for criticising Irving's
 2work, these may help explain why he did so, but they do
 3not of themselves invalidate the criticisms which have to
 4be dealt with on their own terms".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware of the fact that Professor Broszat refused
 6to allow me any space to reply in that learned journal?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I will take your word for it that that was the case,
 8though is it normal in that particular journal that ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whether it is or it is not, I do not think we
10are going to stay long with Professor Broszat.
11 MR IRVING:     Very well. Are you familiar with a document known
12as the Leuchter report, or have you heard of it?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read it in any detail or are you familiar
15with ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have looked through it, yes. I am not an expert on
17Auschwitz, Mr Irving, but I have looked through it, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the fact that other documents
19superceded the Leuchter report, both written by
20revisionists and by anti-revisionists, if I can put it
21like that? There were subsequent investigations.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you heard of the Rudolf report?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     The report by Germar Rudolf.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have heard of that, yes.

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