Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 181

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    I think he may be spending rather long on it
 1document in the way he suggests?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed, yes, my Lord.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I am sympathetic with your concern.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I hope you will accept that I do find it very difficult.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I understand it, but you understand, I hope, why ----
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sure, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- I am not going to stop these questions?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I should add perhaps, my Lord, it is not quite
 9true that we are not calling any such people. We are
10calling Professor Funke from Berlin.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot remember now what he deals with.
12 MR RAMPTON:     He deals with exactly for Germany with what
13Eatwell deals with for this country and Levin for the
14United States.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But is he going to say when he comes, "Oh,
16well, I cannot deal with this sort of Canadian stuff
17because I am dealing with Germany".
18 MR RAMPTON:     That, I do not know -- very likely.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the problem.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I am not in any sense trying to argue with what
21your Lordship just said. I just thought it necessary to
22add the gloss that, so far as anything to do with Germany
23is concerned, there will be a witness.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I had actually forgotten that, but
25thank you very much. But let us take this relatively
26briefly, but I am not stopping you.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Professor, is it correct that you recommended
 2Professor Levin for this particular task?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You did not?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with Professor Levin at all?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you read this paragraph, you will see that it says, he
 9has extracted from my diaries which had been in front of
10him exactly as they had been in front of you, and in
11paragraph he says: "Irving's April 13th 1995 diary entry
12recounts his displeasure of having his name mentioned 'in
13the most disparaging terms in half a dozen places' along
14with supposed errors in an official Canadian government
15report"?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It says that, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     He says that?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He does.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it not have been correct for him to point out that,
20in fact, what I am objecting to is the fact that this is a
21British document that has been planted in Canadian
22government files by this body in England for whatever
23purpose?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I really cannot answer that, Mr Irving.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     He then continues to say: "On June 11th while in Key
26West, Irving states in his diaries that a fine for

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 1thousands of francs by a French court for his public
 2statements was going to 'various greedy Jewish bodies'"?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He says that.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     He says that. In other words, I did write those words in
 5my diaries?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     He says that you did, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     And if I were to tell that you the fine of 1,000 French
 8francs, or whatever it was, thousands of French francs,
 9was imposed on me for having an interview in my home in
10London with a French journalist in which I made a true
11statement, would that justify some kind of outburst in my
12diaries, do you think?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, there again you would have to show me the documents,
14you would have to show me the diary. I find it very
15difficult to comment on this single sentence in the report
16that I did not write and that I am not very familiar with.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     But he appears to have accurately quoted that I wrote in
18the diaries a reference to various greedy Jewish bodies,
19and he is obviously pointing to that as possibly an
20example of Anti-Semitism?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a bit difficult, I think, for Professor
22Evans to deal with that unless he has a word perfect
23memory of what you wrote in your diaries.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which I do not. I do not have all your 30 million words in
25my head.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think your best way of dealing with this,

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 1Mr Irving, is (if you want to) to deal with it as a matter
 2of submission. You have all the documents.
 3 MR IRVING:     Can I deal with one more point, and then I will
 4move away?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right.
 6 MR IRVING:     The final passage concerns the July 31 1995 diary
 7recounting a letter that I sent to the Sunday Times -- I
 8am sorry, to a major Sunday newspaper, is that correct?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the newspaper concerned had stated that "Irving quoted
11by Griffin'", do you know a book by Griffin on faschism?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     "'... Irving writes in the Mein Kampf idiom: "I combat
14Jewry not as a religion but as a race ... a solution to
15the Jewish problem must come".'"?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It looks here as if it is Griffin who writes in the Mein
17Kampf idiom. I presume that is a grammatical mistake.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but, in fact, the actual article said that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not the other, the other Griffin.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that this is an extremely loaded thing for
21me allegedly to have said, "I combat Jewry not as a
22religion but as a race ... a solution to the Jewish
23problem must come", but if I had written that, it would be
24perverse and unforgivable and I would deserve whatever
25came to me?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can I just read you the next two sentences? "In his

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 1letter Irving denied ever making that statement".
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     "The Hitler chronicler remarkably stated, 'I have never
 4read Mein Kampf".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     But, of course, I am called a denier, am I not, and my
 6denials are not worth very much? That is what the whole
 7of this case is about.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Where in this paragraph does he say that?
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     The word "denial" figures very strongly in this case.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I get out of this is that on this
11particular point Professor Levin really does not make much
12of a case.
13 MR IRVING:     I am taking one paragraph here, my Lord ----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is quoting a statement that he attributes
15to you ----
16 MR IRVING:     --- in which I am showing that sentence after
17sentence after sentence ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow the point.
19 MR IRVING:     And the particular point I want to make on that, my
20Lord, as your Lordship is probably familiar, the major
21Sunday newspaper had to pay me a six figure sum in damages
22because of that particular allegation. There is no
23reference whatsoever to that in the ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I do not think much of that -- I mean,
25the point that Professor Levin makes there, I do not think
26much of it.

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