Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 181

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    That is something we will probably have to
 1debate at the end of the case, but I do not think now is
 2the time to debate it with Professor Evans.
 3 MR IRVING:     Having read all the documents that have been placed
 4at your disposal, this I am sure I can ask you ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes you can.
 6 MR IRVING:     My Lord, with respect, you do not know what I am
 7about to ask him.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do. Go on, ask him.
 9 MR IRVING:     Are you aware of the fact that a number of Jewish
10bodies and organizations over the last 20 years have
11attempted prevent me from publishing books, delivering
12speeches, attending lectures and functions at universities
13and the like?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am aware that you allege this, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Having read the documents, having read the letters that
16are in discovery, having read the papers that I have
17obtained by various legal proceedings belonging to a
18certain British body and their equivalent bodies in the
19United States and Canada?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     My report is concerned with your work as an historian.
21What I should say is that there is an enormous amount of
22material that is at the disposable of the Defence in this
23case. I have not read it all. I have read the material
24which is relevant to my particular report which is
25concerned with your work as an historian. I have not read
26systematically through the mass of material which is

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 1relevant to the political aspects of the case, and other
 2matters such as that.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, this question now goes to the first Defendant and
 4I am going to ask the witness, do you teach about fascism
 5to your students?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with this kind of book, Fascism For
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I know that series, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it a commendable series?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not very, I have to say, no.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I put to you, if I may, you have it already in the
13little bundle, if you turn to the 9th page of the little
14bundle will you find the front page of that book in
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Fascism for Beginners written by Stuart Hood and Litzer
18Janz, who is the artist I believe. Would you turn to the
19next page and tell me who distributes this book in the
20United Kingdom, Canada, Europe and Asia?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The Penguin group.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Penguin Group does. Is that the first Defendant in
23this case Penguin Books Limited?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I believe so, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you turn to page 11, The Spread of Neo Fascism? Is
26this a chapter on the spread of fascism through Britain?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am prepared to accept your statement that it is, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     It talks about how the these various parties, including a
 3party called the Austrian Freedom Party, which obviously
 4has no hope of ever coming to power ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, what possible relevance has this
 6got to this case?
 7 MR IRVING:     If you will turn to page 12, my Lord, the relevance
 8becomes plain. Did Hitler really exist, and there is a
 9certain gentleman putting on Swastika eye glasses there.
10Do you have that?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you see anybody in the courtroom who is like or
13resembles the person who is putting on the Swastika eye
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not a very good likeness, I have to say.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is he labelled as David Irving?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, he is labelled as David Irving.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is he saying, "This myth of the mass murder of Jews in the
19death factories of Auschwitz which in fact never took
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, he is.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     And does it half way down the page say: "British historian
23David Irving who describes himself as a mild fascist"?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am still puzzled as to what the
26relevance of this is. I can see that you object to it.

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 1What do you say it goes to?
 2 MR IRVING:     The first Defendants in this case have a record of
 3publishing books attacking me, my Lord.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I may put it this way, so what? The way
 5in which you can rely on it, can I try to help you, is
 6that you can say that you are particularly distressed at
 7the libel of which you are complaining in this action by
 8the fact that Penguin Books keep having a go at you, and
 9ridiculing you by that sort of portrayal, but that is a
10matter for your evidence. That is not a matter for
11cross-examination of Professor Evans.
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord, how else can I put this kind of document
13before the court?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You could have done it, I am not being
15critical of you, and you can certainly do it as far as
16I am concerned later on if you want to, you can simply
17say, "And here is a book which I read and it caused me
18additional distress because this is a publishing house
19that seems to have it in for me".
20 MR RAMPTON:     I also think, if I may say so, that we need to be
21notified. I am not saying there is any objection to this
22now but, normally speaking, if one tenders evidence to the
23court in modern times in support of one's case, one is
24obliged to tell the other side first.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a fair point as well. Shall we leave
26it then so far as Professor Evans is concerned and, if you

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 1want to give evidence about it later on then you can and
 2Mr Rampton has now been forewarned, and he can
 4 MR IRVING:     This precise book is referred to in my claim and
 5also in my reply to their defence, and it has been in my
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did not know that.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I did not either.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but I really do not think Professor
10Evans -- I am sympathetic, Mr Irving, and I am perhaps
11bending the rules in your favour a little bit, to letting
12you put some of the points made against you in some of the
13experts' reports when those experts are not going to be
14called to give evidence, but there is not unlimited
15latitude and I think this goes over the boundary, if I may
16say so.
17 MR IRVING:     But, with respect, my Lord, I fail to see how I
18could put it in otherwise because I cannot do it in my
19closing speech, obviously.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you can, I have just told you, you can
21give evidence about it. This is not something that is
22relevant in cross-examination at all. I am trying to
23explain to you. It is something that you can adduce in
24your own evidence as being evidence going to the issue of
25damage. That is the way to deal with it, not in
26cross-examining any witness, and certainly not Professor

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