Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 181

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    Page 74, paragraph 4.6, at line 9 Professor Eatwell, who
 1'coloured' people does prove he is liberal". This is
 2Professor Eatwell's view.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     "The point here is not simply that he might perceive the
 5advantages of this practice in terms of defusing charges
 6of racism." In other words, Professor Eatwell, can I take
 7it, is there suggesting that I deliberately employed this
 8coloured staff in order not to be accused of racism?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think he is suggesting it is a possibility, though
10I cannot answer for him what he intends there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     It makes it very difficult for people, does it not, that
12we are hanged if we do and we are shot if we do not, so to
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that is really a question.
15That is a comment that you can make at the end of the
17 MR IRVING:     It is. The question I would ask Professor Evans,
18then, is what does it take to prove that one is not racist
19if one employs coloured people in exactly the same way as
20one employs whites, one does not prefer them or
21disadvantage them in any way, one pays them exactly the
22same amount.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That again, if I may say so, Mr Irving, is
24really argument and I understand the argument. But I do
25not think that Professor Evans can do much more on racism
26than he has done by his previous answers.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Will you now go to page 76, Professor Eatwell?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     My name is Evans, not Eatwell. I did not write this
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, will you take it that
 5between us we will try and keep the questioning
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     OK. It is just that I do find it very difficult to answer
 8questions on other people's reports which I have not
 9written, which I have not researched, and which were not
10written in tandem with me but were written independently.
11 MR IRVING:     We are appealing here to your common sense as a
12learned person really, asking for your opinion.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But I am here as an expert, Mr Irving.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us get on.
15 MR IRVING:     I am sure that his Lordship would have no objection
16if you wish to sit actually, Professor.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am happier standing actually. It makes moving around
18with the documents easier.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 76 at paragraph 4.11 the same kind of argument.
20Again, it is by Professor Eatwell and not yourself but
21I am entitled, I think, to put the question to you. "The
22fact that Irving has on occasion made some criticisms of
23Hitler does not prove that he is an anti-fascist. There
24are clear tactical reasons to adopt such a position." Is
25this your argument also, Professor Evans?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think he is concerned here with your current political

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 1position, whereas I am concerned with your historical
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So would you argue the fact that, and I shall show
 4you this next week, I have made large numbers of
 5statements in my biographies of various top Nazis, which
 6can in no way be described as proHitler or proNazi, would
 7you agree with Professor Eatwell's inference or imputation
 8that I have done this in order to defuse criticism and for
 9no other reason?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You would have to show me the statements first before
11I could comment on them.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is, I suppose, in a way a legitimate
13answer, but can I just persuade you that it can be
14answered generally in this way? It is right, if you read
15Hitler's War, that there are critical statements made
16about Hitler, quite a number of them, and the question is
17simply this, and perhaps you would be good enough to try
18and answer it. Have you seen evidence that those are
19inserted into Hitler's War for what you might call
20tactical reasons, in other words for Mr Irving to be able
21to draw attention to them and use them in disproof of any
22allegation that he is a Hitler partisan?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is very speculative, I think. What I do do in my
24report is to go through some of the critical points that
25Mr Irving makes, and they do not, in my view, detract from
26the fact that he is in general someone who admires Hitler,

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 1put it like that. I would not really want to speculate on
 2why they are being put in for political, what political
 3reasons they might be put in for, which is really what
 4Professor Eatwell is talking about. I think he is talking
 5about something slightly different. My concern is with
 6Mr Irving's attitude toward Hitler in his historical
 7writings. Of course, there are criticisms of Hitler
 8there, I perfectly accept that.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is, if I may say so, a perfectly
10complete and fair answer.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not really a concern of mine to show why they have
12been put there.
13 MR IRVING:     You would have preferred the criticisms to be
14stated more loudly perhaps, or more criticisms and fewer
15bits of admiration, as you call it?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would not presume to dictate to you what you write in
17your books, Mr Irving.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Oh? But this is precisely what you have done in your
19expert report, is it not? You have said "I disagree
20entirely with his standpoint". You do not like where
21I put my pointer on the scale, so to speak, is that
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     My criticisms are concerned with your historical method.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that the Second Defendant said that my
25admiration of Hitler went so far, by imputation, by
26inference, that I had a portrait of Adolf Hitler hanging

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 1on my wall in my study?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do in fact cite I think in my report a book by Robert
 3Harris called "Serving Hitler" where I think he mentions
 4something like that, if I can find the place where it is.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I can save you time perhaps by showing you the only
 6portrait of Hitler which is in my possession. Can I show
 7you this and you can see it from there?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 212, I think.
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord, can your Lordship also see it? It is a
10post card on which Adolf Hitler sketched his own likeness
11and which was given to me by his private secretary and so
12it has a certain intrinsic value. Would you accept that
13this is what Robert Harris is probably referring to?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It may well be, I do not know. Let me quote from Robert
15Harris: "Looking down upon him (that is you) as he worked
16from the wall above his desk was a self-portrait of
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is being put is that the self-portrait
19that he was writing about was the post card.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That may well be. I do not know. You would have to ask
21Mr Harris about that, but his work seems to be an accurate
22work, as far as I am concerned. I do not recall Mr Irving
23raising objections to that sentence in it.
24 MR IRVING:     But you accept that to describe that as being a
25portrait of Adolf Hitler hanging on my wall gives the
26wrong impression, does it not? Would that be right?

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