Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 181

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    Mr Irving, it is for your Lordship to decide in
 1the end, and opinion evidence about whether or not Mr
 2Irving is a racist is not admissible, with respect.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not so sure about that. The trouble is
 4with this report I am not able to go to the passage that
 5I think may be there. Unless you seek to argue it very
 6strongly, Mr Rampton, I am inclined to accept that it can
 7be put to this witness, I do not know what his answer is
 8going to be, that Mr Irving has over the years employed a
 9number of coloured people, does that have any influence on
10this witness's views of his agenda, if there is one?
11 MR RAMPTON:     That may be right but, if the witness is entitled
12to express a view about that, which I doubt because he is
13an historian, not a sociologist, even if he were a
14sociologist, I doubt it would help your Lordship, but he
15is not. But it would involve his being shown everything
16that I relied on as showing that Mr Irving is a racist,
17and only in the light of that information can this witness
18fairly answer a question about the colour of the skin of
19Mr Irving's servants.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I suspect that the position actually is with
21Professor Evans that he knows pretty much what the
22Defendants' case on this.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know whether he does or not. I certainly
24have not discussed it with him.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we find out? Professor Evans, have you
26been reading the transcripts of this case?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen the cross-examination that took place on the
 3issue of racism?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I have.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to permit the question, but I do
 6not think we want to spend terribly long on this.
 7 MR IRVING:     Very well. I am landing you a clip of five pages
 8of photographs. Can you see the date on the earliest
 9one? Is it 1980?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it appear to show a female of Barbadian or Caribbean
12descent standing at the door of the car, a Rolls Royce,
13with her mother?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you turn the page, please? Does this show another
16woman of ethnic origin, of coloured origin?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is hard to tell.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Asian or black?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Possibly.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you just look briefly at all the others and confirm
21that they are all ethnics working in an office?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     They are indeed.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Apparently quite content?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you accept from me that they were all my personal
26assistants over the years concerned, and that they

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 1received a proper salary from me?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Have you got documentary proof of that?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could I have a look at it, please?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, let us take it as read that these
 6ladies were all employed by Mr Irving. Does that, in your
 7view, Professor Evans, affect the question whether, in his
 8writings and in what he said, Mr Irving has displayed
 9evidence of a racist attitude? That is the question.
10Then we are going to move on.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. In the end I do not think it does, my Lord.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. Now lets move to something else,
13Mr Irving.
14 MR IRVING:     Yes. This is another contentious issue, but we
15will deal with it very rapidly. Professor Evans, you have
16heard Mr Rampton talk about the expense of this trial and
17about how much it is costing per day no doubt?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware of the fact that the trial is costing a
20considerable amount each day that it runs?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I imagine it must be. I have no idea how much.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the little bundle of documents I gave you, headed "from
23Monday" will you see one page from the transcript, about
24page 8 or thereabouts, headed January 28th 2000?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this transcript appear to show that I have suggested

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 1to the court that, if they were to send members of the
 2Defence to Krakow to scrape the roof off the alleged gas
 3chamber at Auschwitz and find the holes, I would wind up
 4the case immediately because I could not possibly continue
 5with my complaint?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, and the witness says he cannot comment on that.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     The witness says he cannot comment, that is quite right.
 8To your knowledge, has any attempt been made by the
 9Defence to end the case rapidly in this dramatic way?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot really comment on that, I am afraid, any more
11than the witness you questioned could comment. I am not
12an expert on Auschwitz, Mr Irving. I am not here to
13answer questions about Auschwitz. I am here to answer
14questions on my report. So far, you have hardly asked a
15single one.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is for me, Professor Evans, thank you
17very much.
18 MR IRVING:     His Lord is aware of these problems that we have
19with the presentation of the Defence witnesses in this
20case. Are you familiar with the fact that a number of
21Defence witnesses in this case are not going to be giving
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I think one or two of them are not. I am not quite sure
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware of the fact that the Second Defendant is not
26going to give evidence, Professor Lipstadt?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Professor Lipstadt, yes, I am aware of that.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that Professor Levin and Professor Eatwell will not be
 3giving evidence?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is right. I understand, my Lord, that the
 5Defence are perfectly entitled to do that.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and I make no criticism of them for that. Am I
 7allowed to put to him a page of Professor Eatwell's
 8report, my Lord?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In principle, yes.
10 MR IRVING:     It would be page 74, paragraph 4.6. I can read out
11the lines concerned?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could I have a copy, please?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It might be simpler, Professor Evans, if you
14hear the line that is going to be read to you and see
15whether you need the context.
16 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I think this probably goes to a matter we
17have dealt with, so I am not going to ask it.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right.
19 MR IRVING:     I am sorry, yes, he does need it. Page 76 now.
20I think I ought just to refer in fact to page 74, to what
21Professor Eatwell about the matter we disposed of.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 74, paragraph 4.6, at line 9 Professor Eatwell, who
24was one of the experts who was working in tandem with you
25writes: "Yet Irving is an open advocate of the
26repatriation of immigrants. The fact that he has employed

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