Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 181

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But for other things, for views that you express and so
 2on, I had all your published work, and that surely is
 3enough.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will come to that in a minute.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is a mass of more work there.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you at this point, if, for example, you had come
 7across in the diaries sentences like "Zundel is a lunatic"
 8or "Faurisson is completely irresponsible or
 9incorrigible", or something like that, would you have
10quoted that in your report, or would you have left it out?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can you point to me the places in the diaries where you
12make those----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a hypothetical question and we will come back to
14chapter and verse next week.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Maybe the best way of dealing with it is to
16ask the witness to answer the question that I put, namely
17do you think that the ditty is selected and that it is an
18unrepresentative entry in one of the diaries, if you look
19at the totality of what is in the diaries?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It depends, my Lord, what you mean by "unrepresentative".
21There is not a ditty a day.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I think the word is fairly clear in the context of my
23question.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is not a ditty a day, it is one ditty, but there are
25many other remarks of that sort. That is only one ditty.
26It is not full of these things.

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 1 MR IRVING:     You say there are many other remarks of that sort?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you quote any, or did any of the witnesses to your
 4knowledge quote any of these other remarks?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I only know what I have been reading in the court
 6transcripts.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     From the diary. We are just talking at this stage about
 8the diaries.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I really cannot answer for other witnesses.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have had held up around the world as a racist who has
11poisoned the mind of my infant.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not by me, Mr Irving. I have not quoted your offensive
13racist comments in my report.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or the Defence team of which you are part. You have not
15quoted my----?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Offensive comments in my report.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which offensive racist comments have I made then?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You just referred to them.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Apart from the ditty?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You just referred to them yourself.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are referring here to the ditty from the diary.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have been held up by the defence in this case to obloquy
24around the world. In yesterday's Guardian there is this
25photograph of me and the headline which his Lordship can
26read, "The Bogey Man in the Nursery", the Guardian

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 1newspaper again.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that is legitimate. I think
 3I have asked the question that can be asked. I am sorry,
 4Mr Rampton, I did not see you were on your feet.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I agree, and what is quite wrong is for Mr Irving,
 6once again if I may say so and I will say it bluntly, to
 7distort the record by referring to just one of the
 8goodness knows how many examples that I have
 9cross-examined him about and that have been noticed in the
10newspapers.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is a limit to what you can achieve by
12this cross-examination. You can put it, and I hope I have
13put it for you, that really they have picked out -- it is
14cherry picking. That is what you are really accusing the
15Defence of.
16 MR IRVING:     This is the one cherry that they have found in the
17diaries, my Lord, and I insist on this. If Mr Rampton
18wishes to produce others from the diaries?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In due course he will. He cannot do it now.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I am just going to be going through it all again.
21I suppose Mr Irving remembers how God was reaching the
22Final Solution of the black problem with Aids in South
23Africa.
24 MR IRVING:     We will deal with that when the time comes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, please, we must focus on what this
26witness is here for.

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 1 MR IRVING:     You said that it is unrepresentative?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have not said it is unrepresentative.
 3 MR IRVING:     I am sorry, you have used the word
 4"unrepresentative". I say it was unrepresentative? It
 5was 19 words out of 30 million.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is not quoted in my report, Mr Irving. I am here to
 7answer questions on my report. You may ask other
 8witnesses on their reports.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know what percentage of me is therefore racist?
10.00016 per cent of me is racist.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Is that a question?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which means that 99.9984 per cent of me is not, according
13to the diaries.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I do not think this is really
15helpful. Can we leave it this way? I have got a clip of
16what the Defendants rely on for their allegation that you
17are a racist. I will have to make what I can of that.
18You have asked the question that this witness I think has
19answered and I personally think that we would do well to
20move on.
21 MR IRVING:     That is right, my Lord. The reason for asking this
22witness is that he said yes, he read the diaries, as much
23he needed to. He says this because he has formed the
24opinion that they are not very introspective.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He has given his answer. You may not agree
26with it but he has given his answer.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Can I now put to the witness the photographs, or is
 2this not the appropriate moment?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know what you are going to put.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, this is something the witness cannot
 5possibly answer questions upon.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It depends a bit what the question is. Tell
 7me what the question is going to be and then I will decide
 8whether you can ask it.
 9 MR IRVING:     The question will be: Witness, if you see
10photographs of members of my staff whom I have
11employed over the last 20 years, does it strike you that
12I am a racist?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is your reaction to that?
14 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, can I say this? This witness is not here
15to give evidence about whether or not Mr Irving is a
16racist.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is perfectly open to cross-examination,
18I think, on his view. He may say, "I cannot answer
19because I have not seen the documents or seen the
20evidence".
21 MR RAMPTON:     With respect, I do not think he can. He is here as
22an expert in history. He is not here as an expert in
23racism.
24 MR IRVING:     He has accused me of anti-semitism and racism in
25his report.
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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