Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 181

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, can we just short circuit this? Can I
 2just see whether we cannot short circuit? You were
 3compelled by the process of what is now called disclosure
 4to hand over a whole lot of what you very understandably
 5regard as private documents because they are your own
 7 MR IRVING:     That is not quite so, my Lord.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have the passage here: "Irving has been obliged to
 9disclose an enormous mass of material in addition to the
10list of documents he initially agreed to supply".
11I understood that you were indeed obliged to hand over
12your private diaries to defence by court order.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you understand that I was ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Is that not the case?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- obliged to hand over my entire diaries?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is my understanding, yes, because they were deemed to
17be relevant to the case.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Was it not the case, in fact, that originally the
19Defence asked to see any diary references to, I believe,
20half a dozen or a dozen people in my entire diaries?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I cannot really answer that. I have not been privy to
22every move that the defence has made, but I am aware of
23the fact that the Master of the Queen's Bench did order
24you to hand over all the diaries because they were deemed
25to be relevant to the case.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you attach any criticism to Mr Irving for

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 1his reluctance to hand over his entire diaries?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     My Lord, I think it is quite understandable.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So do I. Are we gaining anything by this?
 4 MR IRVING:     My lord, there was no reluctance to hand over the
 5diaries at all; quite the contrary. Will you accept,
 6witness, that, in fact, when I was asked to provide the
 7diary references to these dozen people, which would have
 8involved me in an inordinate amount of labour, looking
 9through 49 volumes of diaries for 10 names, will you
10accept that I volunteered to provide the entire diaries to
11the defence whereupon Mr Anthony Julius said yes?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you can show me the documents in which you did so.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to stop this because I do not
14think this is helping me at all. I do not think any
15criticism attaches to you in relation to the diaries and,
16even if it did, it really would not bear on the issues we
17have to decide.
18 MR IRVING:     I am sorry I am being so obtuse, my Lord, but I am
19reaching a point which I will now bring forward by one or
20two sentences, if I may?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, do.
22MR IRVING (To the witness): You have had at your disposal,
23have you not, witness, therefore, either jointly or
24severally as a defence team, something like 20 or 30
25million words of my private diaries which I made no
26attempt to conceal, is that so?

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which were disclosed by a court order, that is right, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that the court order concerned only the
 3limitations on whom these diaries could be shown to apart
 4from yourselves, and that they should be destroyed after
 5this case was over? In other words, a court order was
 6requested by myself to protect the privacy of those
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I understood that the Defence went to court in order to
 9obtain access to the documents. There may have been an
10additional -- I think there was an additional court order
11which restricted access yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have had 20 or 30 million words of my private diaries,
13also complete transcripts of my telephone conversations
14where they were recorded on tape and transcribed.
15You have also had transcripts of enumerable speeches and
16public lectures that I delivered. Out of this enormous
17documentation, you and the entire defence team have picked
18one or two sentences which you then displayed for the
19delectation of the entire world, have you not?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I think it is more than one or two. I think I made
21a distinction between the diaries which, as I said, were
22not really very useful for my report because my report is
23mainly concerned with your published work as an historian
24and, clearly, your private diaries are concerned with many
25other things. So you will have noticed as you look
26through my report that I do not really say very much about

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 1them and I cite them in just a handful of cases and they
 2are really not very central. What you have on the
 3published record, in terms of speeches and writings, is a
 4very different matter. And in 740 ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that diaries go to the state of mind more
 6than speeches, private diaries?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     In the 740 pages of my report, I do cite all of these
 8other things extremely extensively. I think it is more
 9one or two sentences. It is more like several hundred,
10including some very lengthy extracts.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are at present dealing just with the diaries. We will
12deal with the other matters bit by bit. But will you
13accept that if you had 20 or 30 million words of diaries
14in front of you -- I have to confess, I have not counted
15them; I have just done a back of an envelope calculation
16as to how many words are involved -- but you have had all
17these diaries which go very clearly to my state of mind,
18my private state of mind, and you have found at the end of
19this enormous mountainous task, one ditty?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is not my report.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     To prove that I am racist?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am sorry, that is not quoted in my report.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am afraid I have to put to you this question
24because you have had access to these and, unfortunately,
25the person who put that in his report is not presenting
26himself for cross-examination.

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But, Mr Irving, my Lord, I hope I can say that I really do
 2not feel I should answer or can answer questions on
 3other ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is a question that you can be asked
 5which you would have to answer and I think -- may I ask
 6it? No, you do not have to answer for other people's
 7thoughts, but I think the question is this -- Mr Irving,
 8tell me if I am wrong -- the use that is made of the ditty
 9is unrepresentative of the diaries in their totality. Is
10that really what you are asking?
11 MR IRVING:     That is precisely the point I was going to make, my
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a question you may or may not be able
14to answer, but ask the question.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. One thing I want to say is that your diaries,
16Mr Irving, are not introspective diaries. There are many,
17many different kinds of diaries but you do not fill them
18with agonising over your own state of mind, so that it is
19often rather difficult. They are not primarily sources
20for your state of mind. Indeed, that is not what I in
21particular used them for. I cannot answer for witnesses
22and what they will have used your diaries for. I used
23them principally for identifying, such as I could,
24contacts that you had had with Holocaust deniers. That
25was my main purpose of looking through them.
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     We are going to come to that later.

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