Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 181

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 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Everything has been made available, but, of course, as you
 2will appreciate, there is an enormous quantity of material
 3and ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read my entire correspondence between myself and
 5the IHR?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have certainly had access to it and it has been looked
 7through and some of it, of course, is cited in my report.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Evans, you expressed the opinion in your report
 9that my diaries may have been written for some ulterior
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could you point to the page in my report where I say that,
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     That sounded to me as though it was a rehearsed remark.
14I shall avoid wasting the court's time. It is in the
15first few pages and I shall say, is it true that it is
16your opinion that I may have written the diaries for some
17reason other than one would normally write a diary? What
18are your suspicions about why I wrote that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Would you like to point me to the page where I -- you see,
20I have a problem, Mr Irving, which is that, having been
21through your work, I cannot really accept your version of
22any document, including passages in my own report, without
23actually having it in front of me, so I think this may be
24a problem for us.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     If may make things easier for you, of course. That is
26precisely why I do not and I do not think his Lordship

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 1will accept that kind of answer to my questions either.
 2Let me phrase a simple question to you. You have read all
 3my diaries or you have had all my diaries made available
 4to you and you have read extensively ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     They have been made available. I have to say they were
 6not particularly useful for my report. My report is
 7concerned almost entirely with your published writings and
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you find frequently in the diaries of the 1970s
10descriptions of my meetings with members of Hitler's
11private staff?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I do not think I refer to that in my report.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. Did the other experts ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There are one or two references in my report.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- Professor Levin and Professor Eatwell have access to
16these diaries as well and also their researchers?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Indeed they did. I think they -- yes, they did.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you form any kind of consensus about these diaries?
19Did you form any kind of opinion as to whether, for
20example, the diaries were written with a view to
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not discussed the diaries with Professor Eatwell or
23Professor Levin.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you form an opinion yourself about whether the diaries
25were perfectly ordinary diaries written for whatever
26psychological reason people have to write diaries, or were

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 1they written rather like Alan Clark with an intention of
 2publishing later on or somewhere in between?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is really getting into the realms of speculation
 4about your psychology, Mr Irving, which I would rather
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am asking you about your opinion. I am asking your
 7opinion, having read the diaries. You have expressed an
 8opinion in the report and I am asking what your opinion is
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Can you direct me to the place in the report where I
11express this opinion?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am asking you what your opinion is now. Do you think
13the diaries were written genuinely or were they written as
14a camouflage?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Let me try to find this place that we are trying to
16discuss here in the report.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not trying to trap you into providing a useful
18answer. I am trying to lay the groundwork for questions
19which will be based on the diaries, Professor Evans.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am just looking at the very end of it,
21Professor Evans, but I cannot quite find what I think
22perhaps Mr Irving has in mind.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is page 16, paragraph 1.5.6 which I said I have had
24access to his complete private diaries, where I simply
25describe them as "private diaries".
26 MR IRVING:     Can you not just answer simply my question? Having

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 1had that access to these private diaries, have you formed
 2an opinion?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No, not really. I mean, I do not, I do not really want to
 4speculate as to why they are being written. Certainly
 5some of them, as you know, are published, you have put
 6extracts up and you publish extracts. So, from that point
 7of view, certainly, I would imagine there was an intention
 8of publishing at least part of them because you have
 9actually published them.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But whether that applies to all of them is a completely --
12is a rather different matter. It is rather similar, in a
13way, to Goebbels's diaries. As you know, those which he
14published in his lifetime, those were the early 1930s, he
15did excise quite substantial chunks before he published
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     In Goebbels', for example, and I do not accept there is
18any comparison, he wrote handwritten diaries and he
19dictated typescript diaries, did he not?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is right, yes, and he signed a publishing contract,
21as you know, of his diaries.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     And he published, for example, the 1933 diary as a book
23later on which was quite close but not the same as ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is what I was referring to, yes. He excised certain
25parts of it, so one could not say that everything in his
26earlier diaries were written with a view to publication.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     In your expert report you said that I was obliged to turn
 2over my diaries to the Defence. What did you mean by
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Could you point to me the page where I say that?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Oh, dear!
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, do we really need to go to that?
 7I expect you probably did say that.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, I really, my Lord, would ask I be pointed to where
 9I say that.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right, if you really want it?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am afraid I do, yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you help Mr Irving? It is difficult to
13be asked to -- it is a report running to about 750 pages.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Can I tell your Lordship what actually happened?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know exactly what happened which is why I
16wondered whether Professor Evans really needed to be
17referred to the documents.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship knows what happened? Oh, well, that
19is fine. Then there cannot be any contest because
20Mr Irving knows too.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know. I think this is perhaps not a useful
23 MR IRVING:     It is wording that he used there in the expert
24report. It is adding a flavour here as though I was
25dragged kicking and screaming into the courtroom and taken
26under armed guard back to my house ----

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