Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 181

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask the witness to be given one of these little
 2bundles, please, Miss Rogers? I am purely using you,
 3Professor Evans, now as a means of getting this document
 4before his Lordship. Are you familiar with the Internet?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you ever use the Internet?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Occasionally, yes. I have to say not very extensively.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to ask you at this stage to look at the first
 9document, but you can leaf through if you wish. Are you
10familiar with the H Net which is an aspect of the
11Internet, a kind of communication between experts?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not very, I have to say.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that there are various H Nets. There is H Net,
14Anti-Semitism and so on?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     H German, and so on, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar, Professor, with a Dr David Aaron Meyer,
17who is the Associate Professor of History and who runs the
18particular discussion group on the Internet called H
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     At Dickinson State University?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not, no.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     He expresses an opinion in his e-mail to me dated August
2423rd last year in which he says, "I have been familiar
25with your works for a very long time", meaning my works,
26"and find them exceptionally well written and

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 1researched". Would you share his opinion?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     No.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is familiar with my works and he finds them
 4exceptionally well written and researched. Never mind the
 5"well written", but he finds them well researched. And
 6you do not accept his opinion?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It depends what you mean by "well researched". I mean,
 8I do not dispute the fact that you have very wide and deep
 9knowledge of the source material for the Third Reich,
10particularly during the Second World War, above all, and
11of course it is quite right, as countless historians have
12pointed out, that you discovered many new sources.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     What have I done with these sources? Have I made them
14available immediately to the community?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I was about to go on to say that the problem for me is
16what you do with the sources when you then start to
17interpret them and write them up.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     But do I do two things with these sources, is this
19correct? On the one hand, I write my books based on them,
20on the other hand, I automatically placed the entire
21collection of these new sources in various institutes
22where people like yourself and your researchers and other
23historians around the world can immediately go and see
24them; is that correct?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Some of them you have placed, you have made available, and
26the others you have not.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with any collections that I have not
 2immediately made available? Can you identify any?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, the interrogations of Hans Aumeier, which have
 4already been discussed in this courtroom, it took you four
 5or five years to make those or six years to make those
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     We have actually discussed them at some length in this
 8courtroom, and it is true that I did not make the actual
 9bundle of documents available to other historians after
10I discovered them. This is true. Can you suggest there
11may be a reason why I, having discovered that little
12scoop, did not make them immediately available to others?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. It seemed to me that they were somewhat embarrassing
14for your position on the existence of gas chambers at
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the letter that I wrote to Professor
17Robert Jan van Pelt in May 1996 drawing his attention to
18this bundle of documents?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is four years after you discovered the documents and
20a letter to one person. That is not the same as making
21them generally available immediately.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that Professor Robert Jan van Pelt was the
23world's acknowledged expert on Auschwitz and he was the
24appropriate person to have his attention drawn to this
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, but I repeat, that is not the same as making them

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 1generally available immediately which is your initial
 2claim you made a few minutes ago.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that there is a difference between my
 4visiting elderly widows and persuading them to part with
 5their diaries, on the one hand, and, on the other hand,
 6something which is in the public domain already in the
 7British public archives and where anybody can go and find
 8it if they have sufficient nouse, and nobody else has
 9bothered to. There is a difference there.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I am not sure. It was in a very -- it is in a somewhat
11unexpected place where you might not expect to find it in
12the Public Record Office in the files of the Political
13Warfare Executive.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you expect a researcher on Auschwitz to have
15sufficient acumen to go to the Public Record Office and
16look in the files of the War Office Military Intelligence,
17WO208, and in the catalogue find a file called
18"Interrogations of Hans Aumeier of Auschwitz", would that
19take much intelligence, do you think?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You have to know exactly where to look for in
2119 -- I think these were only released in 1991 and 1992.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask the same question in a different
23way? If you had come across the Aumeier diary, I think it
24is a diary, what would you have done with it if you felt
25it was your duty to place it in the public domain?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Published an article about it, I think, in a learned

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 1journal. It is a somewhat problematic document, but
 2I think it is of some interest and importance.
 3 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, have you seen a letter of mine in
 4the files which are disclosed to you by way of discovery
 5in which I wrote to the Institute of Contemporary History
 6-- disregarding your views about that Institute at this
 7moment -- and suggested precisely that, that this item,
 8the Aumeier papers, should be published in some learned
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Which Institute of Contemporary ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     The one in California, the IHR?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Oh, that is the institute Of Historical Review, so-called.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I am sorry. I gave you the wrong name, yes.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, I do not regard that as a respectable academic
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     But was this not an offer, a suggestion, by me that this
17document should be placed in the public domain by way of
18somebody writing a learned paper about it?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     If you place your letter in front of me, a copy of it,
20I would be happy to look at it.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am asking a general question here, what degree of access
22have you been given to all the documents that I made
23available to the Defence by way of discovery? Have you
24seen everything or have you had everything available to
25you or have you been able to pick and choose or have you
26had just limited access?

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